Kevin Givens - DL - UDFA

Originally posted by Second2Nunley:

That's weird. The Ninernation posted the highest five and lowest five grades for the defense last game. Kinlaw had a 91 and Givens was in bottom five with a grade in the 50's? Or is this for the season? Even so, arrow up. I like Givens too.

I'm playing around here but yeah, their (PFF) grading system seriously still needs some work esp. regarding weighting. They count so much the exact same weight like a DL on a pass breakup, penalties, etc.

Fortunately the INT and pick 6 weighted heavily but they don't include the grade for initially getting blocked out 1on1 nor Givens weighted more given he made the actual play rushing through 2 OL so Kinlaw could make the highlight (great play though).

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm playing around here but yeah, their (PFF) grading system seriously still needs some work esp. regarding weighting. They count so much the exact same weight like a DL on a pass breakup, penalties, etc.

Fortunately the INT and pick 6 weighted heavily but they don't include the grade for initially getting blocked out 1on1 nor Givens weighted more given he made the actual play rushing through 2 OL so Kinlaw could make the highlight (great play though).

They kind of remind me of the team power rankings that change from week to week depending on what happened the previous game. I really don't think they're much more valid than the rankings some of us could come up with if we had the time to watch the film they do. Just part of today's world that's enamored with statistics.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:

Originally posted by NCommand:

I'm playing around here but yeah, their (PFF) grading system seriously still needs some work esp. regarding weighting. They count so much the exact same weight like a DL on a pass breakup, penalties, etc.

Fortunately the INT and pick 6 weighted heavily but they don't include the grade for initially getting blocked out 1on1 nor Givens weighted more given he made the actual play rushing through 2 OL so Kinlaw could make the highlight (great play though).

They kind of remind me of the team power rankings that change from week to week depending on what happened the previous game. I really don't think they're much more valid than the rankings some of us could come up with if we had the time to watch the film they do. Just part of today's world that's enamored with statistics.

Yeah. The foundation is fine and at the end of the season you see more correlation with reality with a bigger sample size. The skeleton is fine but now they need to build in "football" to it. Like grading a slot receiver higher for making 3rd down catches. The differences in assignments between a SAM and WIll in a 3-4 in pass rush attempts, experts to ID specific coverages, route schemes and blocking assignments to add proper weighting, etc.

Givens, Street, Kinlaw were all making plays yesterday. That Street tackle on 3rd and 1 was great. DJ Jones is probably gone because Niners can't afford to pay him and he's injury prone, and interior line depth is a strength right now.

Originally posted by the_dynasty:

Givens, Street, Kinlaw were all making plays yesterday. That Street tackle on 3rd and 1 was great. DJ Jones is probably gone because Niners can't afford to pay him and he's injury prone, and interior line depth is a strength right now.

I think they can afford to pay DJ. He just hasn't shown he deserves it in my opinion. He didn't take a step forward this season

Originally posted by NCommand:
Kevin Givens is better than Aaron Donald. That's the real takeaway here.

Javon is rubbing off on him.

can he Givens his ACL to Bosa quickly... thanks!

This discussion on PFF is so intellectually dishonest. When a PFF grade confirms a bias certain people here love use it to support their case. But when the grade doesn't confirm their bias these same people come up with some lame excuses for why its evaluations happen to be faulty. I wish these people would just be consistent and either outright accept or reject their findings across the board because these rationalizations are lame.

PFF said Givens has been a better DL Kinlaw for the season. But their evaluators also found that Kinlaw waaaaaay outplayed Givens for the entirety of the past Rams game when you factor in each snap.

If you can't accept one, you shouldn't accept the other because they're using the same evaluative standards to make each finding.

Arguing that their evaluations only happen to be conveniently right when they agree with your subjective take is about as intellectually dishonest a position as anyone can make. It's the equivalent of having a prejudice and using anything you can find to support it rather than honestly forming an opinion based on the evidence.

Originally posted by NCommand:
OK.

Every time I post a Tristan Wirfs clip, my mentions become an all-out war between Jets, Bucs and Browns fans over whether Becton, Wirfs or Wills is better lol

— Jon Ledyard (@LedyardNFLDraft) December 1, 2020

Wirfs was the one I wanted if we were taking a tackle. Glad we have what we have, though.

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

OK.

Every time I post a Tristan Wirfs clip, my mentions become an all-out war between Jets, Bucs and Browns fans over whether Becton, Wirfs or Wills is better lol

— Jon Ledyard (@LedyardNFLDraft) December 1, 2020

Wirfs was the one I wanted if we were taking a tackle. Glad we have what we have, though.

I liked Wills the most of that bunch, honestly.

Originally posted by RasSuar:

This discussion on PFF is so intellectually dishonest.

That's really the genius behind it. There's a stat for either side and it's marketed by the "local" PFF reps for each team. For instance, Jeff Deeney is our PFF guy. He just posted Mike McGlinchey's run blocking grade. Just his run blocking grade. Most fans will eat that up and move on. The more knowledgeable fans will ask, "Great, we already know his strength. What's his pass blocking grade and overall grade?"

And many are done with very small sample sizes (hidden) and can be pumped up without context.

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

OK.

Every time I post a Tristan Wirfs clip, my mentions become an all-out war between Jets, Bucs and Browns fans over whether Becton, Wirfs or Wills is better lol

— Jon Ledyard (@LedyardNFLDraft) December 1, 2020

Wirfs was the one I wanted if we were taking a tackle. Glad we have what we have, though.

No doubt. That's the best part of the draft in that multiple directions could be the right move.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by RasSuar:

This discussion on PFF is so intellectually dishonest.

That's really the genius behind it. There's a stat for either side and it's marketed by the "local" PFF reps for each team. For instance, Jeff Deeney is our PFF guy. He just posted Mike McGlinchey's run blocking grade. Just his run blocking grade. Most fans will eat that up and move on. The more knowledgeable fans will ask, "Great, we already know his strength. What's his pass blocking grade and overall grade?"

And many are done with very small sample sizes (hidden) and can be pumped up without context.

Yeah, but we've been talking overall grades. Like you mention MM above, his overall PFF grade is on par with Wirfs, as is Tomlinson . But you will dismiss this, whereas you will point to the Givens/Kinlaw overall grades as truth . That's what he's getting at with what folks do with PFF. Use it when it suits them and disregard when it doesn't

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by RasSuar:

This discussion on PFF is so intellectually dishonest.

That's really the genius behind it. There's a stat for either side and it's marketed by the "local" PFF reps for each team. For instance, Jeff Deeney is our PFF guy. He just posted Mike McGlinchey's run blocking grade. Just his run blocking grade. Most fans will eat that up and move on. The more knowledgeable fans will ask, "Great, we already know his strength. What's his pass blocking grade and overall grade?"

And many are done with very small sample sizes (hidden) and can be pumped up without context.

Yeah, but we've been talking overall grades. Like you mention MM above, his overall PFF grade is on par with Wirfs, as is Tomlinson . But you will dismiss this, whereas you will point to the Givens/Kinlaw overall grades as truth . That's what he's getting at with what folks do with PFF. Use it when it suits them and disregard when it doesn't

Exactly. In the beginning ya'll were referencing Kinlaw's PFF grade (starting with RasSuar, ironically) because he started out hot, then it stopped when he bombed for quite a few games and now it's back because he had 2 back to back nice games (21 snaps).

His overall point is accurate.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

I liked Wills the most of that bunch, honestly.

Esp. for our system.