Under Center vs. Shotgun/Pistol Formation

Originally posted by Niners816:

This is why we don't listen to grant....I just looked it up this morning.

Jimmy undercenter 76% 104 QB rate
Jimmy gun 57% 82 QB rate

As a team we've been undercenter 64% of the time and in the gun 36%

Explosive offenses have a mix of both. After all they are basically just formations. Nowadays you can synch up any concept with either undercenter or gun. Kyle loves his UC because his playpass game is more effective because for us undercenter shows a heavier run lean.

Meanwhile Grant Cohn is sitting there playing Madden, talmbout "but I always play out of the shotgun and my offense is #1 in the league!!"

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Niners816:
This is why we don't listen to grant....I just looked it up this morning.

Jimmy undercenter 76% 104 QB rate
Jimmy gun 57% 82 QB rate

As a team we've been undercenter 64% of the time and in the gun 36%

Explosive offenses have a mix of both. After all they are basically just formations. Nowadays you can synch up any concept with either undercenter or gun. Kyle loves his UC because his playpass game is more effective because for us undercenter shows a heavier run lean.

Meanwhile Grant Cohn is sitting there playing Madden, talmbout "but I always play out of the shotgun and my offense is #1 in the league!!"

haha...I gave up on that whole gun vs UC being the "real" way years ago. It's up to the coach and what he thinks best suites his QB. You'd better be damn sure that kyle was in the heavy gun/pistol looking in Washington in 2012. his offense that year rushed for 2700 yards, amassed well over 6000 yards and scored over 430. He knows what he's doing. Just speaking of that year, pro-football-reference.com had 81% of their pass attempts from the gun/pistiol...go youtube some of those games. It's a fun watch as well. Kyle is just a stud man....plain and simple.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Niners816:

This is why we don't listen to grant....I just looked it up this morning.

Jimmy undercenter 76% 104 QB rate
Jimmy gun 57% 82 QB rate

As a team we've been undercenter 64% of the time and in the gun 36%

Explosive offenses have a mix of both. After all they are basically just formations. Nowadays you can synch up any concept with either undercenter or gun. Kyle loves his UC because his playpass game is more effective because for us undercenter shows a heavier run lean.

Meanwhile Grant Cohn is sitting there playing Madden, talmbout "but I always play out of the shotgun and my offense is #1 in the league!!"

Let me make a correction.....those numbers are actually flipped based on pro-football-reference.com. I read them wrong as they didn't jive with sharpfootballstats.com. So Jimmy is actually doing better in the gun thus far. Jimmy is averaging almost 10 ypa UC. But 3 of his Ints have happened UC and that is dragging down his rating.

All of you guys are making very good points

I do remember specifically that Jeff Garcia was very good at the three step drop

So if being under Center helps the offense more why not more three-step drops?

Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:
All of you guys are making very good points

I do remember specifically that Jeff Garcia was very good at the three step drop

So if being under Center helps the offense more why not more three-step drops?

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe Jimmy isn't as good or doesn't prefer them. Or maybe coach doesn't

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:

All of you guys are making very good points

I do remember specifically that Jeff Garcia was very good at the three step drop

So if being under Center helps the offense more why not more three-step drops?

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe Jimmy isn't as good or doesn't prefer them. Or maybe coach doesn't

I can understand that

I personally have no problem with the offensive system but the only real weakness I see is the vulnerability to the Blitz.

If that can be countered with the three step drop or something else I will look at this as a solved subject

Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:
All of you guys are making very good points

I do remember specifically that Jeff Garcia was very good at the three step drop

So if being under Center helps the offense more why not more three-step drops?

Every coach and playcaller is different. Its clear that Shanahan has a strong preference for the QB being under center but he's also shown that he's willing to adapt his approach based on his personnel like when Garoppolo first came over from New England or like 816 mentioned when he was in Washington and running an offense for RG3. He's clearly able and willing to utilize a wide variety of formations but his offense is carried by his run game and his run game is most effective with the QB being under center. The best way to hold back an overly aggressive defense is still an effective run game that makes them pause a bit instead of going all out after the quarterback.

From an article that no longer exists.

"Every time you're under center, you've got a lot more run options and a lot more play-action options and a lot more movement options off of your runs," Shanahan said. "Your play choices are endless. You can do everything. Once you get into the 'gun, certain things are like cut in half. Play-action is not as good because it happens quicker. You can't hold the ball out there for as long and stuff. It just eliminates being as balanced."

Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:
I can understand that

I personally have no problem with the offensive system but the only real weakness I see is the vulnerability to the Blitz.

If that can be countered with the three step drop or something else I will look at this as a solved subject

Every offense to an extent is vulnerable to being blitzed. Todd Bowles has made a great living in the NFL as an aggressive defensive coordinator who employs a steady stream of blitzes including a super effective triple A gap blitz that has left countless offenses struggling to respond. Whether the QB is under center or playing out of the shotgun, if you get free runners at them, they are going to take some hits so I don't see as that big of a deal.

The best way to respond to blitzes is to have a decisive QB that knows the offense like the back of his hand, RBs that can pass block well and receivers that can immediately uncover in that 5-8 yard range to beat the blitz again and again until that defense cries uncle and adjusts their approach. Not sure Garoppolo is there yet as far as the offense goes and he definitely still needs to build chemistry with his receiving corps but I expect them to get more and more efficient in countering the blitz as the season goes on. Eventually teams will get tired of being burnt over and over again.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:
Interesting point Grant Cohen brought up.

Garoppolo seems to be excelling very much this year in the shotgun formation

However,

His interceptable pass rate is about the 6th highest in the league when playing under Center...so far.

The thinking is that if they do more shotgun or pistol the running game will suffer but when we look at what happened turn the Steelers game he was hit and pressured a lot which caused some turnovers and Bobble passes by the receivers

So the question is should the team continue playing more under Center as it has regardless of the hits and pressure Garoppolo has been getting especially by teams that run a 3-4 that are typically Blitz heavy?

Or...

Should the team develop more play action and running options from the shotgun keeping Garoppolo safe from another injury?

And keep in mind Garoppolo has a noted injury history and it'd be in the team's best interest to keep him safe as much as possible because even in his place Nick Mullens was completely obliterated garoppolo's place last year while playing under Center

Discuss...

Bill Walsh didn't use the Shotgun in the WCO.

I don't care for it.

I'm not a huge fan but tolerate it when needed.

Another reminder Niner fans that when comparing the GOAT Montana to Brady, remember that Montana has only 1 documented shotgun pass in his entire career while Brady likely eclipses that in a regular drive, if not within 2 plays.

If the shotgun is/was beneficial for passing for QBs, then Montana and Young essentially played their entire careers without that benefit. There's one particular play I recall well which would 99.99999999999999% be shotgun today but wasn't when Montana ran it and it was still a success:

September 11, week 2 of the 1988 NFL season, 49ers playing the Giants at the Meadowlands:

Young started the game and then Montana came in at halftime.
Score is Giants 17, 49ers 13 with ~49 seconds to play....3rd and 10 from the 22 yard line.
Montana does what looks to be a 5 or even a 7 step drop against a heavy Giants pass rush but manages to heave a deep pass down the right sideline perfectly in stride to Rice who catches it while Giants DBs collide against each other and scores a TD with 42 seconds remaining!!!

Rice finally gets the monkey off his back at Giants Stadium, and 49ers get their first win against the Giants in NJ since the '84 season.

To me it's perhaps Montana's most underrated clutch BIG TIME THROW that defined him as a HoF legend.

Knowing full well it would be a pass with LT and the rest of that violent Giants pass rush teeing off against the Niner OL, Montana's tremendous footwork was able to get it done.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Niners816:
This is why we don't listen to grant....I just looked it up this morning.

Jimmy undercenter 76% 104 QB rate
Jimmy gun 57% 82 QB rate

As a team we've been undercenter 64% of the time and in the gun 36%

Explosive offenses have a mix of both. After all they are basically just formations. Nowadays you can synch up any concept with either undercenter or gun. Kyle loves his UC because his playpass game is more effective because for us undercenter shows a heavier run lean.

Meanwhile Grant Cohn is sitting there playing Madden, talmbout "but I always play out of the shotgun and my offense is #1 in the league!!"

haha...I gave up on that whole gun vs UC being the "real" way years ago. It's up to the coach and what he thinks best suites his QB. You'd better be damn sure that kyle was in the heavy gun/pistol looking in Washington in 2012. his offense that year rushed for 2700 yards, amassed well over 6000 yards and scored over 430. He knows what he's doing. Just speaking of that year, pro-football-reference.com had 81% of their pass attempts from the gun/pistiol...go youtube some of those games. It's a fun watch as well. Kyle is just a stud man....plain and simple.

Absolutely a stud, I remember those games and in particular the Seahawk playoff game. Few offenses if any looked as good as that Redskins offense against Seattle that year. Pretty wild when you think about it. It would be worth a rewatch sometime soon...

That's the true genius of Kyle that McVay has yet to even sniff at. Now with that precedent set, in theory McVay could do something similar if he had to in the future but nobody in the NFL ever did anything quite like that. It's still fascinating af to me several years later that we have seen such a hybrid offense with mobile QBs. Imagine having Young incorporate a bit of those concepts in the 1990s against the Cowboys??

Belichick incorporates more variety of offenses on a year to year, game to game basis (i.e. pass heavy one week spread formations, then run heavy, 21 and 22 personnel the next). But I still don't think the Xs and Os are as nuanced as what Kyle comes up with.

I remember Young talking about being able to better read defenses from under center because he could keep his eye on the D rather than looking down for the snap.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Bill Walsh didn't use the Shotgun in the WCO.

I don't care for it.

It was in his playbook and he did use it. Not a lot but it was still used.

1981 vs Bears

Joe looks just fine to me in the Gun. I'd imagine the reason why it didn't take a bigger hold was based on that formation the run game would have been zero.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:
Interesting point Grant Cohen brought up.

Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:

Originally posted by English:
OP you lost me with your first four words.

LOL

I understand Grant Cohen is a skeptic but he still makes a good point and I thought it'd be a good discussion to have

Regardless of whom brought the topic up.

Clearly this is Grant himself or Follower's 2nd account. Who the hell says Grant Cohen when everyone and their momma knows how to spell that douche's name. You needa ask Saleh on his next press for tips on how to better disguise your undercoverage Mr.Cohen..

Jimmy G under center in SF (11 games)

88 completions
135 attempts
65.2%
1222 yards
9.1 ypa
7 TDs
4 Ints
99.1 QB rate

Jimmy G in the Gun in SF (11 games)

143 completions
216 attempts
66.2%
1795 yards
8.3 ypa
10 TDs
8 Ints
91.9 QB rate