Better team 2019 or 2012?

Originally posted by 49er-from-Yavin-IV:
In some manners the choices are easy, in others it's not so easy as the schemes are different and thus the players involved fit their specific scheme and may not fit the other scheme. I take scheme fit into account.

F/O: 2019 (By far)
HC: 2019 (By far)
QB: 2019 (By far)
RB: Even
TE: 2019
WR: Even
OL: Even
DL: 2019
LB: 2012
CB: 2019
S: Even
K: 2019
P: Even

I think there are some fair ones in there. FO and HC are better but Harbaugh is not as bad as claimed on this board. He was playing with Alex Smith and Kap. What a handicap. Wow. QB is far, far better on this team. DL is better on this team although that one was good. This one is great. Overall defense is better on this team.

I think this is an overall better team top to bottom. But that one was good. Honestly 2012 had some real holes in it. Which really indicates the great job Harbaugh did. He made the Super Bowl and multiple NFC Championship games having to hide his QB. Do you know how hard that is in the NFL? I don't wish this thread to turn into yet another hate on Harbaugh thread. We got so many of those right now. I'm just saying he had handicaps and holes on that roster and still went really far which is really tough. You can hate on him if you want but to do what he did with what he had or better yet what he lacked is incredible.

The bottom line this is a more complete team. Almost a complete roster all over the field. It's hard to even find a weakness. And Jimmy G is not the weakness that the media claims. He is not Mahomes but he is not terrible either. He is light years better than Alex Smith or Kaepernick. We used to have to hide our QB's on this team. I don't think we have to with him. We had the running game working. So why would you go away from it? It doesn't mean Jimmy G can't play. They just stuck with what was working.

Originally posted by blm7754:

Originally posted by Niner_N_Caroliner:

I tend to think the 2012 team was more talented but this team really seems to be cohesive and Shanahan's play calling is on another level.

Just looking at the lineups: (Bold indicates the player I believe to be better)

QB - Colin Kaepernick or Jimmy Garoppolo
RB - Frank Gore or Raheem Mostert
FB - Bruce Miller or Kyle Juszczyk
WR - Michael Crabtree / Randy Moss or Deebo Samuel / Manny Sanders
TE - Vernon Davis or George Kittle
LT - Joe Staley '12 or Joe Staley '19
LG - Mike Iupati or Laken Tomlinson
C - Jonathan Goodwin or Ben Garland
RG - Alex Boone or Mike Person
RT - Anthony Davis or Mike McGlinchey

DE - Justin Smith or Arik Armstead
NT - Isaac Sopoaga or Sheldon Day
DT/DE - Ray McDonald or DeForrest Buckner
RUSH - Aldon Smith or Dee Ford
SAM/SILB - NaVorro Bowman or Kwon Alexander
MIKE/WILB - Patrick Willis or Fred Werner
WILL - Ahmad Brooks or Dre Greenlaw
CB - Carlos Rogers/Tarell Brown or Richard Sherman/Emmanuel Mosley
FS - Dashon Goldson or Jimmie Ward
SS - Donte Whitner or Jaquiski Tartt

What do you guys think?

I disagree on many of these... and in some cases, the difference is minimal. Also, hard to compare because of very different defensive schemes.

WR - Crabtee and Moss were not as good as Deebo and Sanders. Moss was way past his prime. Crabtree is the best WR of the 4 (at that point in time), but as pairs of starting WRs, I'd take 2019 Deebo and Sanders.

LG - Laken Tomlinson is better than Iupati, who was never a good pass blocker and only excelled as a straight ahead run blocker.
RT - McGlinchey is better than Davis.
Overall I'd say we easily have a better OL in 2019 than in 2012.

Defense is very hard to compare because we ran different schemes. Overall, I'd say 2019 is much better against the passing game. 2012 was better against the run. The only position group from 2012 that I would pick over our 2019 group is ILB. Willis and Bowman were all-time greats and are ultimately what made that 2012 defense so good.

FS/SS - Tartt and Ward are better safeties than Goldson and Whitner, considering that the primary job of a safety is to cover in the passing game. Sure, Goldson and Whitner were fierce in the running game, but they would get burned for long passes.

CB - I was never impressed with Carlos Rogers. I'd take Sherman and Mosley.

My two major disagreements are Iupati, who was a 4 time pro bowler and probably one of the best run blocking guards of the decade. Maybe Tomlinson is a better pass blocker (not sure) but ultimately they are guards and the big demand is to create running lanes. Iupati, and that line in general was much better IMO.

This line has its deficiencies covered up by Shanahans pre snap motion.

The other area is safety. I think Goodson was the total package and could play the run as well as cover. Whitney is probably the worst cover guy of the 4 but it's not like he was a total sieve. His role in run support, the intimidation factor and his leadership to me set him apart from Tartt for me

Originally posted by blm7754:

Originally posted by Niner_N_Caroliner:

I tend to think the 2012 team was more talented but this team really seems to be cohesive and Shanahan's play calling is on another level.

Just looking at the lineups: (Bold indicates the player I believe to be better)

QB - Colin Kaepernick or Jimmy Garoppolo
RB - Frank Gore or Raheem Mostert
FB - Bruce Miller or Kyle Juszczyk
WR - Michael Crabtree / Randy Moss or Deebo Samuel / Manny Sanders
TE - Vernon Davis or George Kittle
LT - Joe Staley '12 or Joe Staley '19
LG - Mike Iupati or Laken Tomlinson
C - Jonathan Goodwin or Ben Garland
RG - Alex Boone or Mike Person
RT - Anthony Davis or Mike McGlinchey

DE - Justin Smith or Arik Armstead
NT - Isaac Sopoaga or Sheldon Day
DT/DE - Ray McDonald or DeForrest Buckner
RUSH - Aldon Smith or Dee Ford
SAM/SILB - NaVorro Bowman or Kwon Alexander
MIKE/WILB - Patrick Willis or Fred Werner
WILL - Ahmad Brooks or Dre Greenlaw
CB - Carlos Rogers/Tarell Brown or Richard Sherman/Emmanuel Mosley
FS - Dashon Goldson or Jimmie Ward
SS - Donte Whitner or Jaquiski Tartt

What do you guys think?

I disagree on many of these... and in some cases, the difference is minimal. Also, hard to compare because of very different defensive schemes.

WR - Crabtee and Moss were not as good as Deebo and Sanders. Moss was way past his prime. Crabtree is the best WR of the 4 (at that point in time), but as pairs of starting WRs, I'd take 2019 Deebo and Sanders.

LG - Laken Tomlinson is better than Iupati, who was never a good pass blocker and only excelled as a straight ahead run blocker.
RT - McGlinchey is better than Davis.
Overall I'd say we easily have a better OL in 2019 than in 2012.

Defense is very hard to compare because we ran different schemes. Overall, I'd say 2019 is much better against the passing game. 2012 was better against the run. The only position group from 2012 that I would pick over our 2019 group is ILB. Willis and Bowman were all-time greats and are ultimately what made that 2012 defense so good.

FS/SS - Tartt and Ward are better safeties than Goldson and Whitner, considering that the primary job of a safety is to cover in the passing game. Sure, Goldson and Whitner were fierce in the running game, but they would get burned for long passes.

CB - I was never impressed with Carlos Rogers. I'd take Sherman and Mosley.

Agree, good points.

Safeties then could lay out people but got penalized a lot and got burnt a lot. Linebackers of that team were the best part of the 2012 team. This team is more complete all the way around.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

I think there are some fair ones in there. FO and HC are better but Harbaugh is not as bad as claimed on this board. He was playing with Alex Smith and Kap. What a handicap. Wow. QB is far, far better on this team. DL is better on this team although that one was good. This one is great. Overall defense is better on this team.

I think this is an overall better team top to bottom. But that one was good. Honestly 2012 had some real holes in it. Which really indicates the great job Harbaugh did. He made the Super Bowl and multiple NFC Championship games having to hide his QB. Do you know how hard that is in the NFL? I don't wish this thread to turn into yet another hate on Harbaugh thread. We got so many of those right now. I'm just saying he had handicaps and holes on that roster and still went really far which is really tough. You can hate on him if you want but to do what he did with what he had or better yet what he lacked is incredible.

The bottom line this is a more complete team. Almost a complete roster all over the field. It's hard to even find a weakness. And Jimmy G is not the weakness that the media claims. He is not Mahomes but he is not terrible either. He is light years better than Alex Smith or Kaepernick. We used to have to hide our QB's on this team. I don't think we have to with him. We had the running game working. So why would you go away from it? It doesn't mean Jimmy G can't play. They just stuck with what was working.

I think you are forgetting how dynamic and almost unstoppable Kap was that year. Jimmy G has yet to take over games like that. Aside from depth on defense and limited play makers on the outside I think that team was also stacked.

'89
'84
'94
'19
'88
'12

Originally posted by Niner_N_Caroliner:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
I think there are some fair ones in there. FO and HC are better but Harbaugh is not as bad as claimed on this board. He was playing with Alex Smith and Kap. What a handicap. Wow. QB is far, far better on this team. DL is better on this team although that one was good. This one is great. Overall defense is better on this team.

I think this is an overall better team top to bottom. But that one was good. Honestly 2012 had some real holes in it. Which really indicates the great job Harbaugh did. He made the Super Bowl and multiple NFC Championship games having to hide his QB. Do you know how hard that is in the NFL? I don't wish this thread to turn into yet another hate on Harbaugh thread. We got so many of those right now. I'm just saying he had handicaps and holes on that roster and still went really far which is really tough. You can hate on him if you want but to do what he did with what he had or better yet what he lacked is incredible.

The bottom line this is a more complete team. Almost a complete roster all over the field. It's hard to even find a weakness. And Jimmy G is not the weakness that the media claims. He is not Mahomes but he is not terrible either. He is light years better than Alex Smith or Kaepernick. We used to have to hide our QB's on this team. I don't think we have to with him. We had the running game working. So why would you go away from it? It doesn't mean Jimmy G can't play. They just stuck with what was working.

I think you are forgetting how dynamic and almost unstoppable Kap was that year. Jimmy G has yet to take over games like that. Aside from depth on defense and limited play makers on the outside I think that team was also stacked.

For a while until it got figured out. The read option that is. If you had to throw from the pocket with Kap or Alex Smith that was a severe handicap. Both of them. Jimmy G is light years better than that. I think there was a real handicap at QB on that team (both of them). Where this team has a legitimate NFL QB. We are far better there. A pretty important position. It's amazing we made it that far with that handicap IMO.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

For a while until it got figured out. The read option that is. If you had to throw from the pocket with Kap or Alex Smith that was a severe handicap. Both of them. Jimmy G is light years better than that. I think there was a real handicap at QB on that team (both of them). Where this team has a legitimate NFL QB. We are far better there. A pretty important position. It's amazing we made it that far with that handicap IMO.

I agree that by year 2 people had figured Kap out and he was less effective. But that year he was amongst the most unstoppable players in the league.

Again I don't like disrespecting our players, Jimmy G is a really good QB. But I'm not sure I would say he is light years ahead of anyone who was average to above average at the position. He has not gotten to that elite level just yet. He has flashes. But it's our running game and defense that is special. I think Alex Smith at his best (his years in KC) was more effective than Jimmy G has been to this point. But I do think Jimmy G 2019 is better than Kap or Smith...slightly. Giving us the greater threat to pass is what makes him slightly better overall. But Kap was pretty awesome at times.

Originally posted by Niner_N_Caroliner:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
For a while until it got figured out. The read option that is. If you had to throw from the pocket with Kap or Alex Smith that was a severe handicap. Both of them. Jimmy G is light years better than that. I think there was a real handicap at QB on that team (both of them). Where this team has a legitimate NFL QB. We are far better there. A pretty important position. It's amazing we made it that far with that handicap IMO.

I agree that by year 2 people had figured Kap out and he was less effective. But that year he was amongst the most unstoppable players in the league.

Again I don't like disrespecting our players, Jimmy G is a really good QB. But I'm not sure I would say he is light years ahead of anyone who was average to above average at the position. He has not gotten to that elite level just yet. He has flashes. But it's our running game and defense that is special. I think Alex Smith at his best (his years in KC) was more effective than Jimmy G has been to this point. But I do think Jimmy G 2019 is better than Kap or Smith...slightly. Giving us the greater threat to pass is what makes him slightly better overall. But Kap was pretty awesome at times.

That's more less what I'm saying. 2019 Jimmy G is better than Kap or Alex Smith Super Bowl year 49ers. Not including anything on the Chiefs. Who cares about he Chiefs? Just what he did for the 49ers THAT Super Bowl year. I think Jimmy G is better. You can look at stats and this and that all you want. Just watch him play. Jimmy G can go on the road and win 48 - 46 at New Orleans. He can win at Seattle. I don't remember Alex Smith or Kap for that matter doing much of anything like that. LOL.

Teams are close in a lot of ways. The difference is Kyle and his ability to design and call plays. '19 > '12

Originally posted by kansasninerfan:

'89
'84
'94
'19
'88
'12

Are you saying this team is better than the 88 team?

Originally posted by 60sFan:

Teams are close in a lot of ways. The difference is Kyle and his ability to design and call plays. '19 > '12

That's the biggest advantage this team has IMO.

But Willis, Bowman, A. Smith, J. Smith and Brooks made up such an incredible front 7 that it seems to be pretty close. Willis and Bowman are the best ILB combo in the history of the NFL IMO

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by Niner_N_Caroliner:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

For a while until it got figured out. The read option that is. If you had to throw from the pocket with Kap or Alex Smith that was a severe handicap. Both of them. Jimmy G is light years better than that. I think there was a real handicap at QB on that team (both of them). Where this team has a legitimate NFL QB. We are far better there. A pretty important position. It's amazing we made it that far with that handicap IMO.

I agree that by year 2 people had figured Kap out and he was less effective. But that year he was amongst the most unstoppable players in the league.

Again I don't like disrespecting our players, Jimmy G is a really good QB. But I'm not sure I would say he is light years ahead of anyone who was average to above average at the position. He has not gotten to that elite level just yet. He has flashes. But it's our running game and defense that is special. I think Alex Smith at his best (his years in KC) was more effective than Jimmy G has been to this point. But I do think Jimmy G 2019 is better than Kap or Smith...slightly. Giving us the greater threat to pass is what makes him slightly better overall. But Kap was pretty awesome at times.

That's more less what I'm saying. 2019 Jimmy G is better than Kap or Alex Smith Super Bowl year 49ers. Not including anything on the Chiefs. Who cares about he Chiefs? Just what he did for the 49ers THAT Super Bowl year. I think Jimmy G is better. You can look at stats and this and that all you want. Just watch him play. Jimmy G can go on the road and win 48 - 46 at New Orleans. He can win at Seattle. I don't remember Alex Smith or Kap for that matter doing much of anything like that. LOL.

I was about to say you have to give the edge at QB to Kaep if your talking 12 in a vaccum versus 19. However your right Kaep never won in Seattle and as much as I love Alex give me Jimmy G all day. Way better passing offense now. Wish we had this D with 12 Bowman. Bowman, Alexander and Warner. Mmmmmm. Anyway Greenlaw is a stud so whatevs.

Yeah this team is more dominate. If Aldon wasn't getting pressure the QB had all day. Much like Flacco did due to the Smith's each playing with one good arm in the SB. 12 was super physical and zero finesse. This year is super physical but we can play finesse. Harbaugh was an awesome leader and a hell of a head coach but Kyle would coach circles around Jim boy when it comes to x's and o's. I cant wait to see that matchup and if Harbaugh gets his crap together at Michigan it may happen.

The offense is clearly better in 2019. The 2012 defense was a bit better..our defense now is good, but prone to going into "automatic td mode"

All I know is that I enjoyed this season more than any season under Harbaugh

This is a really difficult comparison because these teams have such drastically different styles.