Niners draft Colton McKivitz | OT West Virginia

Last time we needed a guard desperately and didn't draft one we ended up trading for Tomlinson from the Lions at the end of training camp. I think this will be their strategy again. Find a player deemed a bust, doesn't fit the new system, or pushed out by a younger guy and trade for him. But, I have also seen a player who everyone thought was a backup at best drafted in later rounds step up big and become a starter and play solid.

Originally posted by NCommand:
On the topic/question of why they didn't take an OL by Matt Maiocco, "...it means there was no one there that would fit" comment by Kyle, this is THEIR entire list of OL they were directly connected with of guys who fit (and where they were projected to go by TDN and where they actually went):

T 66 Matthew Bergeron (38)
T 68 Tyler Steen (65)
T 94 Jaelyn Duncan (186)
T 100 Warren McClendon Jr. (174)
IOL 120 Tashawn Manning (UDFA)
T 147 Nick Saldiveri (103)
IOL 150 Atonio Mafi (144)
T 176 Ryan Hayes (238)
T 179 Braeden Daniels (118)
T 185 Wanya Morris (92)
T 197 Joey Fisher (49ers UDFA)
T 222 Kilian Zierer (UDFA)
T 233 Blake Freeland (106)
IOL 235 Jake Andrews (107)
IOL 292 Juice Scruggs (62)
T 296 Jordan McFadden (156)
T 297 Trevor Reid (UDFA)
T 306 Jake Witt (236)
IOL 398 Grant Gibson (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Shyron Rodgers (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Kevin Toote (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Ilm Manning (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Tyler Beach (UDFA)
T UDFA Henry Byrd (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Cory Luciano (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Wade Willet (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Jack Wilson (UDFA)
T UDFA Luke Haggard (UDFA)

In short, there were plenty of OL that fit their system...they even brought in 3 as UDFA's as further proof. They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

They can always get more OLinemen if the current OLinemen don't pan out. Best way to figure out if any of these guys (Manning, Luciano, and Fisher) are any good is to throw them to the 49er DLine wolves. If they survive, they make the team.

What better way to figure out if an OLineman has any talent, than by putting him up against Bosa and Hargraves and see how fast they get road graded. Those OLinemen that remain standing, make the team.

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I think if we make the super bowl and lose in the upcoming season, we have a 50% shot at losing Trent to retirement (a la Joe Staley). If we *win* the super bowl, I think that goes up to 90%.

I think Kyle has an edge in spotting undervalued offensive line talent. He immediately saw Trent Brown wasn't a fit for the 49ers, and that Brunskill was. That's genius right there. I think one reason that he doesn't feel like he needs to draft a running back high, is because he can spot the kind of offensive linemen he needs to operate his run concepts. I really hope we can keep Foerster. I think he's a lot better than Benton was. Fisher, Manning, and Luciano are Foerster's newest projects. I hope we can have success with them as we've had with Brendel. There is enough competition on the offensive tackle side, I think, for the improvement to occur. Ishmeal, Feliciano, and Pryor are nice additions to push McKivitz and the rest to improve or get cut.

What makes you so confident regarding Trent retiring? Has he mentioned it? He would be walking away from, by far, his 3 highest paying years of his career (last season was the most money he's made in a year). He hasn't slowed down at all. He even was able to take a year to let his body heal up.

I think he wants to get the most out of these next three-four seasons because it's the first time he's been on a winning team and experiencing playoffs.

he would be walking away from like $80M

I'm an optimist, but I still plan for the worst. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. So yes, Trent hasn't really mentioned anything about retirement, but at age 34, that becomes a much higher probability as the years go by. Also, I'd pick players so that there is competition. Right now, there isn't any real competition for Trent's job, but there should be.

Originally posted by Hangman_52:
Last time we needed a guard desperately and didn't draft one we ended up trading for Tomlinson from the Lions at the end of training camp. I think this will be their strategy again. Find a player deemed a bust, doesn't fit the new system, or pushed out by a younger guy and trade for him. But, I have also seen a player who everyone thought was a backup at best drafted in later rounds step up big and become a starter and play solid.

That's a great route as well. I love trades and GM's are no longer shy about these anymore. Kyle did seem down on even getting a rookie as it sounds like to him, they just take too long to develop and any rookie he gets will be well behind McKivitz (system experience) and the Pryor (veteran).

Originally posted by tankle104:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
This was a weak draft class for OL. Even at the top there weren't any guys like Trent Williams that were sure fire players that could anchor the line. Depth was also lacking. Maybe next year will be better.

Yeah, agree. Last week was the first I heard this was a weak OLine draft class. Last year was a weak QB draft, but we got Brock Purdy. Hopefully Joey Fisher is our OLine Brock Purdy.

As long as Fisher has the right mindset and work ethic, no reason he doesn't turn into a good player. His physical skill set is eye popping. If he went to a bigger school, he might of been the first o line guy taken.

his speed, quickness, and strength would all be at the top of all prospects.

He should attach himself to Williams and banks hip, while practicing against bosa. Lol see how quickly he can expedite that development timeline.

i don't think we will see anything from his this year, hope I'm wrong though.

First thing I'd do to Joey Fisher is throw him up against Bosa and Hargrave and humble him. I'd like to see how he does against those two guys and gauge how much work he has to do to become a full fledged starter in the NFL.

Originally posted by Giedi:
They can always get more OLinemen if the current OLinemen don't pan out. Best way to figure out if any of these guys (Manning, Luciano, and Fisher) are any good is to throw them to the 49er DLine wolves. If they survive, they make the team.

What better way to figure out if an OLineman has any talent, than by putting him up against Bosa and Hargraves and see how fast they get road graded. Those OLinemen that remain standing, make the team.

That is true and it's curious why more young OL don't develop here more on that DL-fast track. That might be a player ID issue although when they did decid to spend legit draft capital (McGlinchey and Banks), they hit. I'm still hopeful for Burford as well and we might have some gems in Poe, Zakelj and Fisher. Are they talents that can help take this unit to the top? Stay tuned. But I feel much better about Foerster. He seems to have stabilized the group and gotten some production from young players. That's encouraging!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Hangman_52:
Last time we needed a guard desperately and didn't draft one we ended up trading for Tomlinson from the Lions at the end of training camp. I think this will be their strategy again. Find a player deemed a bust, doesn't fit the new system, or pushed out by a younger guy and trade for him. But, I have also seen a player who everyone thought was a backup at best drafted in later rounds step up big and become a starter and play solid.

That's a great route as well. I love trades and GM's are no longer shy about these anymore. Kyle did seem down on even getting a rookie as it sounds like to him, they just take too long to develop and any rookie he gets will be well behind McKivitz (system experience) and the Pryor (veteran).

That's why I agree with you on your talent stacking strategy. OLinemen do take a bit of time to develop. I am disappointed they couldn't find one in their day 3 picks. But yeah, it's a weak OLine draft and all the guys they liked, so they say, went early. No need to doubt them on this. If they can find a gem in the UDFA category, then they will go into 2024 much stronger than if they didn't. I'm really looking forward to Poe's and Zakelj's developments, as well as the development of this years undrafteds. I think they are still ahead of the game is certain respects. They didn't need to spend a draft pick on a center this year. If any of this years undrafteds does become a starter in a year or two that's (in my opinion) the equivalent of a fourth round pick per starter.

Originally posted by NCommand:
On the topic/question of why they didn't take an OL by Matt Maiocco, "...it means there was no one there that would fit" comment by Kyle, this is THEIR entire list of OL they were directly connected with of guys who fit (and where they were projected to go by TDN and where they actually went):

T 66 Matthew Bergeron (38)
T 68 Tyler Steen (65)
T 94 Jaelyn Duncan (186)
T 100 Warren McClendon Jr. (174)
IOL 120 Tashawn Manning (UDFA)
T 147 Nick Saldiveri (103)
IOL 150 Atonio Mafi (144)
T 176 Ryan Hayes (238)
T 179 Braeden Daniels (118)
T 185 Wanya Morris (92)
T 197 Joey Fisher (49ers UDFA)
T 222 Kilian Zierer (UDFA)
T 233 Blake Freeland (106)
IOL 235 Jake Andrews (107)
IOL 292 Juice Scruggs (62)
T 296 Jordan McFadden (156)
T 297 Trevor Reid (UDFA)
T 306 Jake Witt (236)
IOL 398 Grant Gibson (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Shyron Rodgers (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Kevin Toote (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Ilm Manning (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Tyler Beach (UDFA)
T UDFA Henry Byrd (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Cory Luciano (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Wade Willet (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Jack Wilson (UDFA)
T UDFA Luke Haggard (UDFA)

In short, there were plenty of OL that fit their system...they even brought in 3 as UDFA's as further proof. They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So this is a list of guys they were known to have met with, had in for a visit and or talked to this off season?

Originally posted by Giedi:
First thing I'd do to Joey Fisher is throw him up against Bosa and Hargrave and humble him. I'd like to see how he does against those two guys and gauge how much work he has to do to become a full fledged starter in the NFL.

Oh, he'll get plenty of 1on1's!

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NCommand:
On the topic/question of why they didn't take an OL by Matt Maiocco, "...it means there was no one there that would fit" comment by Kyle, this is THEIR entire list of OL they were directly connected with of guys who fit (and where they were projected to go by TDN and where they actually went):

T 66 Matthew Bergeron (38)
T 68 Tyler Steen (65)
T 94 Jaelyn Duncan (186)
T 100 Warren McClendon Jr. (174)
IOL 120 Tashawn Manning (UDFA)
T 147 Nick Saldiveri (103)
IOL 150 Atonio Mafi (144)
T 176 Ryan Hayes (238)
T 179 Braeden Daniels (118)
T 185 Wanya Morris (92)
T 197 Joey Fisher (49ers UDFA)
T 222 Kilian Zierer (UDFA)
T 233 Blake Freeland (106)
IOL 235 Jake Andrews (107)
IOL 292 Juice Scruggs (62)
T 296 Jordan McFadden (156)
T 297 Trevor Reid (UDFA)
T 306 Jake Witt (236)
IOL 398 Grant Gibson (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Shyron Rodgers (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Kevin Toote (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Ilm Manning (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Tyler Beach (UDFA)
T UDFA Henry Byrd (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Cory Luciano (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Wade Willet (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Jack Wilson (UDFA)
T UDFA Luke Haggard (UDFA)

In short, there were plenty of OL that fit their system...they even brought in 3 as UDFA's as further proof. They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So this is a list of guys they were known to have met with, had in for a visit and or talked to this off season?

Yes sir. @Steph49K kept a log book online for everyone and I added the ones she missed. It was nearly 250 players deep. Only 2 players we drafted were not on their (board). I then added the TDN's 425 big board to it for organizing. It was so comprehensive, of the first 190 TDN-49ers players, 10 didn't get picked up by us or another team.

I didn't even bother looking at anything else. Who they were going to draft was right there in black and white.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
They can always get more OLinemen if the current OLinemen don't pan out. Best way to figure out if any of these guys (Manning, Luciano, and Fisher) are any good is to throw them to the 49er DLine wolves. If they survive, they make the team.

What better way to figure out if an OLineman has any talent, than by putting him up against Bosa and Hargraves and see how fast they get road graded. Those OLinemen that remain standing, make the team.

That is true and it's curious why more young OL don't develop here more on that DL-fast track. That might be a player ID issue although when they did decid to spend legit draft capital (McGlinchey and Banks), they hit. I'm still hopeful for Burford as well and we might have some gems in Poe, Zakelj and Fisher. Are they talents that can help take this unit to the top? Stay tuned. But I feel much better about Foerster. He seems to have stabilized the group and gotten some production from young players. That's encouraging!

Well, do you see how complicated Kyle's run and pass blocking schemes are? I mean Kyle demands that a young OLineman be athletic enough to zone block, and have the techniques and physical talent to man block. I think a lot of Kyle's linemen come in here superbly athletic first, but unfortunately, they don't have the physical power to deal with man blocking without a year or two in the 49er strength and conditioning program. I think the hardest part of playing in Kyle's offense as an offensive lineman is having to mind meld with the rest of the OLinemen. That just takes a lot of reps before that is all muscle memory. When Kyle's offense motions, the opposing defense adjusts too, and those variable defensive fronts - along with the various blocking assignments - are probably a pain to get down as a young OLineman. Foerster's done a great job in coaching all that stuff, I hope we can keep him long term.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NCommand:
On the topic/question of why they didn't take an OL by Matt Maiocco, "...it means there was no one there that would fit" comment by Kyle, this is THEIR entire list of OL they were directly connected with of guys who fit (and where they were projected to go by TDN and where they actually went):

T 66 Matthew Bergeron (38)
T 68 Tyler Steen (65)
T 94 Jaelyn Duncan (186)
T 100 Warren McClendon Jr. (174)
IOL 120 Tashawn Manning (UDFA)
T 147 Nick Saldiveri (103)
IOL 150 Atonio Mafi (144)
T 176 Ryan Hayes (238)
T 179 Braeden Daniels (118)
T 185 Wanya Morris (92)
T 197 Joey Fisher (49ers UDFA)
T 222 Kilian Zierer (UDFA)
T 233 Blake Freeland (106)
IOL 235 Jake Andrews (107)
IOL 292 Juice Scruggs (62)
T 296 Jordan McFadden (156)
T 297 Trevor Reid (UDFA)
T 306 Jake Witt (236)
IOL 398 Grant Gibson (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Shyron Rodgers (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Kevin Toote (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Ilm Manning (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Tyler Beach (UDFA)
T UDFA Henry Byrd (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Cory Luciano (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Wade Willet (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Jack Wilson (UDFA)
T UDFA Luke Haggard (UDFA)

In short, there were plenty of OL that fit their system...they even brought in 3 as UDFA's as further proof. They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So this is a list of guys they were known to have met with, had in for a visit and or talked to this off season?

Yes sir. @Steph49K kept a log book online for everyone and I added the ones she missed. It was nearly 250 players deep. Only 2 players we drafted were not on their (board). I then added the TDN's 425 big board to it for organizing. It was so comprehensive, of the first 190 TDN-49ers players, 10 didn't get picked up by us or another team.

I didn't even bother looking at anything else. Who they were going to draft was right there in black and white.

OK but guys they talk to, have in for a visit and or meet with are not necessarily "fits". That's the point of talking/meeting/visiting.... looking to further explore the prospect and whether they actually are a fit or not. There is more to scouting than what's on tape, character matters too.

Where they may have been projected to go and where they went doesn't mean much here either, because every team has their own big board with their own personal rankings they compiled.

Unless you have a copy of the 49erals 2023 big board, one cannot conclude with any certainty as to whether Kyle was being truthful or not.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
They can always get more OLinemen if the current OLinemen don't pan out. Best way to figure out if any of these guys (Manning, Luciano, and Fisher) are any good is to throw them to the 49er DLine wolves. If they survive, they make the team.

What better way to figure out if an OLineman has any talent, than by putting him up against Bosa and Hargraves and see how fast they get road graded. Those OLinemen that remain standing, make the team.

That is true and it's curious why more young OL don't develop here more on that DL-fast track. That might be a player ID issue although when they did decid to spend legit draft capital (McGlinchey and Banks), they hit. I'm still hopeful for Burford as well and we might have some gems in Poe, Zakelj and Fisher. Are they talents that can help take this unit to the top? Stay tuned. But I feel much better about Foerster. He seems to have stabilized the group and gotten some production from young players. That's encouraging!

Well, do you see how complicated Kyle's run and pass blocking schemes are? I mean Kyle demands that a young OLineman be athletic enough to zone block, and have the techniques and physical talent to man block. I think a lot of Kyle's linemen come in here superbly athletic first, but unfortunately, they don't have the physical power to deal with man blocking without a year or two in the 49er strength and conditioning program. I think the hardest part of playing in Kyle's offense as an offensive lineman is having to mind meld with the rest of the OLinemen. That just takes a lot of reps before that is all muscle memory. When Kyle's offense motions, the opposing defense adjusts too, and those variable defensive fronts - along with the various blocking assignments - are probably a pain to get down as a young OLineman. Foerster's done a great job in coaching all that stuff, I hope we can keep him long term.

When it comes to OL, Kyle is pretty much, "f**k them rookies." He LOVES veterans. But your point is why. He'd much rather have the low ceiling-high system knowledge veteran than spend years training a rookie. In fact, he pretty much spelled it out right now to start this interview.

https://www.youtube.com/live/65Qw5-NnX4k?feature=share

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NCommand:
On the topic/question of why they didn't take an OL by Matt Maiocco, "...it means there was no one there that would fit" comment by Kyle, this is THEIR entire list of OL they were directly connected with of guys who fit (and where they were projected to go by TDN and where they actually went):

T 66 Matthew Bergeron (38)
T 68 Tyler Steen (65)
T 94 Jaelyn Duncan (186)
T 100 Warren McClendon Jr. (174)
IOL 120 Tashawn Manning (UDFA)
T 147 Nick Saldiveri (103)
IOL 150 Atonio Mafi (144)
T 176 Ryan Hayes (238)
T 179 Braeden Daniels (118)
T 185 Wanya Morris (92)
T 197 Joey Fisher (49ers UDFA)
T 222 Kilian Zierer (UDFA)
T 233 Blake Freeland (106)
IOL 235 Jake Andrews (107)
IOL 292 Juice Scruggs (62)
T 296 Jordan McFadden (156)
T 297 Trevor Reid (UDFA)
T 306 Jake Witt (236)
IOL 398 Grant Gibson (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Shyron Rodgers (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Kevin Toote (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Ilm Manning (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Tyler Beach (UDFA)
T UDFA Henry Byrd (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Cory Luciano (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Wade Willet (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Jack Wilson (UDFA)
T UDFA Luke Haggard (UDFA)

In short, there were plenty of OL that fit their system...they even brought in 3 as UDFA's as further proof. They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So this is a list of guys they were known to have met with, had in for a visit and or talked to this off season?

Yes sir. @Steph49K kept a log book online for everyone and I added the ones she missed. It was nearly 250 players deep. Only 2 players we drafted were not on their (board). I then added the TDN's 425 big board to it for organizing. It was so comprehensive, of the first 190 TDN-49ers players, 10 didn't get picked up by us or another team.

I didn't even bother looking at anything else. Who they were going to draft was right there in black and white.

OK but guys they talk to, have in for a visit and or meet with are not necessarily "fits". That's the point of talking/meeting/visiting.... looking to further explore the prospect and whether they actually are a fit or not. There is more to scouting than what's on tape, character matters too.

Where they may have been projected to go and where they went doesn't mean much here either, because every team has their own big board with their own personal rankings they compiled.

Unless you have a copy of the 49erals 2023 big board, one cannot conclude with any certainty as to whether Kyle was being truthful or not.

Fit, as in 'system' fit. This is why you didn't see the 380 pound T on that list and why they instantly snatched up 3 from their list as UDFA. It starts with system fit. Then, to your point, everything else.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NCommand:
On the topic/question of why they didn't take an OL by Matt Maiocco, "...it means there was no one there that would fit" comment by Kyle, this is THEIR entire list of OL they were directly connected with of guys who fit (and where they were projected to go by TDN and where they actually went):

T 66 Matthew Bergeron (38)
T 68 Tyler Steen (65)
T 94 Jaelyn Duncan (186)
T 100 Warren McClendon Jr. (174)
IOL 120 Tashawn Manning (UDFA)
T 147 Nick Saldiveri (103)
IOL 150 Atonio Mafi (144)
T 176 Ryan Hayes (238)
T 179 Braeden Daniels (118)
T 185 Wanya Morris (92)
T 197 Joey Fisher (49ers UDFA)
T 222 Kilian Zierer (UDFA)
T 233 Blake Freeland (106)
IOL 235 Jake Andrews (107)
IOL 292 Juice Scruggs (62)
T 296 Jordan McFadden (156)
T 297 Trevor Reid (UDFA)
T 306 Jake Witt (236)
IOL 398 Grant Gibson (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Shyron Rodgers (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Kevin Toote (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Ilm Manning (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Tyler Beach (UDFA)
T UDFA Henry Byrd (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Cory Luciano (49ers UDFA)
IOL UDFA Wade Willet (UDFA)
IOL UDFA Jack Wilson (UDFA)
T UDFA Luke Haggard (UDFA)

In short, there were plenty of OL that fit their system...they even brought in 3 as UDFA's as further proof. They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So this is a list of guys they were known to have met with, had in for a visit and or talked to this off season?

Yes sir. @Steph49K kept a log book online for everyone and I added the ones she missed. It was nearly 250 players deep. Only 2 players we drafted were not on their (board). I then added the TDN's 425 big board to it for organizing. It was so comprehensive, of the first 190 TDN-49ers players, 10 didn't get picked up by us or another team.

I didn't even bother looking at anything else. Who they were going to draft was right there in black and white.

OK but guys they talk to, have in for a visit and or meet with are not necessarily "fits". That's the point of talking/meeting/visiting.... looking to further explore the prospect and whether they actually are a fit or not. There is more to scouting than what's on tape, character matters too.

Where they may have been projected to go and where they went doesn't mean much here either, because every team has their own big board with their own personal rankings they compiled.

Unless you have a copy of the 49erals 2023 big board, one cannot conclude with any certainty as to whether Kyle was being truthful or not.

Fit, as in 'system' fit. This is why you didn't see the 380 pound T on that list and why they instantly snatched up 3 from their list as UDFA. It starts with system fit. Then, to your point, everything else.

OK but an NFL teams draft board is compiled not just by a players system fit but also by his character, mental makeup, work ethic etc.

So those things can change where a player would be projected to go from one team to the next.

Your words not mine :

They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So answer me this :

Should they have selected a system fit where the player has a poor work ethic or poor character or is uncoachable etc. over other positions that were available at that time where the player was not just a system fit but also a locker room fit?