Niners draft Colton McKivitz | OT West Virginia

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
They can always get more OLinemen if the current OLinemen don't pan out. Best way to figure out if any of these guys (Manning, Luciano, and Fisher) are any good is to throw them to the 49er DLine wolves. If they survive, they make the team.

What better way to figure out if an OLineman has any talent, than by putting him up against Bosa and Hargraves and see how fast they get road graded. Those OLinemen that remain standing, make the team.

That is true and it's curious why more young OL don't develop here more on that DL-fast track. That might be a player ID issue although when they did decid to spend legit draft capital (McGlinchey and Banks), they hit. I'm still hopeful for Burford as well and we might have some gems in Poe, Zakelj and Fisher. Are they talents that can help take this unit to the top? Stay tuned. But I feel much better about Foerster. He seems to have stabilized the group and gotten some production from young players. That's encouraging!

Well, do you see how complicated Kyle's run and pass blocking schemes are? I mean Kyle demands that a young OLineman be athletic enough to zone block, and have the techniques and physical talent to man block. I think a lot of Kyle's linemen come in here superbly athletic first, but unfortunately, they don't have the physical power to deal with man blocking without a year or two in the 49er strength and conditioning program. I think the hardest part of playing in Kyle's offense as an offensive lineman is having to mind meld with the rest of the OLinemen. That just takes a lot of reps before that is all muscle memory. When Kyle's offense motions, the opposing defense adjusts too, and those variable defensive fronts - along with the various blocking assignments - are probably a pain to get down as a young OLineman. Foerster's done a great job in coaching all that stuff, I hope we can keep him long term.

When it comes to OL, Kyle is pretty much, "f**k them rookies." He LOVES veterans. But your point is why. He'd much rather have the low ceiling-high system knowledge veteran than spend years training a rookie. In fact, he pretty much spelled it out right now to start this interview.

https://www.youtube.com/live/65Qw5-NnX4k?feature=share

With regards to veterans, anybody *drafted* - in general - usually is more physically superior than those that are in the undrafted category. You see that a bit in Sam Darnold, where he goes in the first round third pick in the 2018 draft. 49ers had no shot at him in 2018 but they were able to land him later when his contract was over or when he was released. I think the same goes for OLinemen. Laken was a first rounder but he didn't pan out with Detroit and 49ers got him with a fifth round pick. So by waiting you can get some of these hidden gems that were let go by crappy teams that can't coach the Offensive Line.

An O-lineman, show me someone who rotates. You're out there 70 plays. That's also why the guy with the best highlight tape is not the guy that you go get. If it's the highlight tape and the whole game, yes, but an O-lineman is different. You've got to be built to last. You don't have to be flashy. You've got to make sure you can survive that game and not be the reason that we lost, and if you can have a guy who can dominate, someone like [T] Trent Williams, it's still only so much you can do there. Where, the D-ends, these pass rushers, they might not be able to play the run, they might not be able to do something, but you can put them in in a 2-minute situation and have them win a game for you. So, that's why you can win with D-lineman by a group of them. O-line, how good do those five play together and one goes down, and the next one comes in. How does that adjust your five and how they play together?" - Kyle Shanahan

I think Kyle is basically saying you can't have any weaknesses on the offensive line. You can have a Trent Williams, but he's only *one man* when it comes to a play, all five OLinemen have to block their guys. If *One* of the five misses the block, the play is blown up. (Mike Person is an example of this) Kyle is doing various things to get the best *group* OLinemen he can. By waiting, by developing undrafteds, and by drafting.

Originally posted by evil:
OK but an NFL teams draft board is compiled not just by a players system fit but also by his character, mental makeup, work ethic etc.

So those things can change where a player would be projected to go from one team to the next.

Your words not mine :

They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So answer me this :

Should they have selected a system fit where the player has a poor work ethic or poor character or is uncoachable etc. over other positions that were available at that time where the player was not just a system fit but also a locker room fit?

These coaches and scouts already have that information by the time they are added to this list. In fact, that list is simply to lock in their grades and shore up a few more points/questions the FO has. That's why they are holding those visits, doing zoom meetings, running drills, attending live workouts, etc. with them. They certainly do their research.

But the idea there wasn't any OL available or there weren't any fits, is bunk.

It's more about how they ranked their players which is also by need and priority. As we've seen countless times, they seem to buck the draft environment and go get their need-player be damned even if it's considered overvalued or a reach by the masses. They lock in with full horse blinders on. They don't seem to subscribe to BPA until later in the draft.

If there was poor character, a poor work ethic, uncoachable, they probably wouldn't be drafted or drafted much later. Given all their players were picked up, that's less likely the issue here. It's simply about what they value and what they prioritized. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Giedi:
With regards to veterans, anybody *drafted* - in general - usually is more physically superior than those that are in the undrafted category. You see that a bit in Sam Darnold, where he goes in the first round third pick in the 2018 draft. 49ers had no shot at him in 2018 but they were able to land him later when his contract was over or when he was released. I think the same goes for OLinemen. Laken was a first rounder but he didn't pan out with Detroit and 49ers got him with a fifth round pick. So by waiting you can get some of these hidden gems that were let go by crappy teams that can't coach the Offensive Line.

An O-lineman, show me someone who rotates. You're out there 70 plays. That's also why the guy with the best highlight tape is not the guy that you go get. If it's the highlight tape and the whole game, yes, but an O-lineman is different. You've got to be built to last. You don't have to be flashy. You've got to make sure you can survive that game and not be the reason that we lost, and if you can have a guy who can dominate, someone like [T] Trent Williams, it's still only so much you can do there. Where, the D-ends, these pass rushers, they might not be able to play the run, they might not be able to do something, but you can put them in in a 2-minute situation and have them win a game for you. So, that's why you can win with D-lineman by a group of them. O-line, how good do those five play together and one goes down, and the next one comes in. How does that adjust your five and how they play together?" - Kyle Shanahan

I think Kyle is basically saying you can't have any weaknesses on the offensive line. You can have a Trent Williams, but he's only *one man* when it comes to a play, all five OLinemen have to block their guys. If *One* of the five misses the block, the play is blown up. (Mike Person is an example of this) Kyle is doing various things to get the best *group* OLinemen he can. By waiting, by developing undrafteds, and by drafting.

Totally. I think Kyle's system alone lends his lean towards veterans. When I heard Brendel giving some details on the pre snap decisions he's making for our QB, it's no wonder. Kyle probably views it as, "We've been developing this dude for 3.5 years now. We have a quality veteran T behind him for security. I can scheme around T issues. If I bring in a rookie T, even if he's got the highest ceiling, it's still going to take him 2 years to develop. Let's pivot elsewhere to positions like S, TE, PK, etc. where those guys can make a more immediate impact and we'll punt that RT down the road."

Originally posted by NCommand:
These coaches and scouts already have that information by the time they are added to this list. In fact, that list is simply to lock in their grades and shore up a few more points/questions the FO has. That's why they are holding those visits, doing zoom meetings, running drills, attending live workouts, etc. with them. They certainly do their research.

But the idea there wasn't any OL available or there weren't any fits, is bunk.

It's more about how they ranked their players which is also by need and priority. As we've seen countless times, they seem to buck the draft environment and go get their need-player be damned even if it's considered overvalued or a reach by the masses. They lock in with full horse blinders on. They don't seem to subscribe to BPA until later in the draft.

If there was poor character, a poor work ethic, uncoachable, they probably wouldn't be drafted or drafted much later. Given all their players were picked up, that's less likely the issue here. It's simply about what they value and what they prioritized. Simple as that.

Yet continously you only take issue with not valuing that one position group. Starting free agent cast-offs or late rounders is fine anywhere but on OL.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
These coaches and scouts already have that information by the time they are added to this list. In fact, that list is simply to lock in their grades and shore up a few more points/questions the FO has. That's why they are holding those visits, doing zoom meetings, running drills, attending live workouts, etc. with them. They certainly do their research.

But the idea there wasn't any OL available or there weren't any fits, is bunk.

It's more about how they ranked their players which is also by need and priority. As we've seen countless times, they seem to buck the draft environment and go get their need-player be damned even if it's considered overvalued or a reach by the masses. They lock in with full horse blinders on. They don't seem to subscribe to BPA until later in the draft.

If there was poor character, a poor work ethic, uncoachable, they probably wouldn't be drafted or drafted much later. Given all their players were picked up, that's less likely the issue here. It's simply about what they value and what they prioritized. Simple as that.

Yet continously you only take issue with not valuing that one position group. Starting free agent cast-offs or late rounders is fine anywhere but on OL.

We've been the #1 defense since ShanaLynch got here. Defense isn't the issue...unless there's 7 minutes left in a Superbowl, of course.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by evil:
OK but an NFL teams draft board is compiled not just by a players system fit but also by his character, mental makeup, work ethic etc.

So those things can change where a player would be projected to go from one team to the next.

Your words not mine :

They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So answer me this :

Should they have selected a system fit where the player has a poor work ethic or poor character or is uncoachable etc. over other positions that were available at that time where the player was not just a system fit but also a locker room fit?

These coaches and scouts already have that information by the time they are added to this list. In fact, that list is simply to lock in their grades and shore up a few more points/questions the FO has. That's why they are holding those visits, doing zoom meetings, running drills, attending live workouts, etc. with them. They certainly do their research.

But the idea there wasn't any OL available or there weren't any fits, is bunk.

It's more about how they ranked their players which is also by need and priority. As we've seen countless times, they seem to buck the draft environment and go get their need-player be damned even if it's considered overvalued or a reach by the masses. They lock in with full horse blinders on. They don't seem to subscribe to BPA until later in the draft.

If there was poor character, a poor work ethic, uncoachable, they probably wouldn't be drafted or drafted much later. Given all their players were picked up, that's less likely the issue here. It's simply about what they value and what they prioritized. Simple as that.

You are making assumptions of OL available based off of some online "draft analysts analysis" and your own. That doesn't mean the 31 other teams all saw it like that and also had similar rankings.

You have already concluded how exactly this franchise ranks players without ever having been a part of their pre draft and scouting processes.

Assumptions are not facts. And without facts, you can't prove your theories. It's as simple as that.

hes better than mcwhiffy in pass pro. Just needs to stay healthy. Had two MCL sprains last year.

front office has double downed on CM, did not draft a tackle or get one in free agency... said he was a gold helmet dude in the draft so lets hope he does a Jake Brindel this year and comes through

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by evil:
OK but an NFL teams draft board is compiled not just by a players system fit but also by his character, mental makeup, work ethic etc.

So those things can change where a player would be projected to go from one team to the next.

Your words not mine :

They 'chose' not to select one earlier as they felt other positions were more important.

So answer me this :

Should they have selected a system fit where the player has a poor work ethic or poor character or is uncoachable etc. over other positions that were available at that time where the player was not just a system fit but also a locker room fit?

These coaches and scouts already have that information by the time they are added to this list. In fact, that list is simply to lock in their grades and shore up a few more points/questions the FO has. That's why they are holding those visits, doing zoom meetings, running drills, attending live workouts, etc. with them. They certainly do their research.

But the idea there wasn't any OL available or there weren't any fits, is bunk.

It's more about how they ranked their players which is also by need and priority. As we've seen countless times, they seem to buck the draft environment and go get their need-player be damned even if it's considered overvalued or a reach by the masses. They lock in with full horse blinders on. They don't seem to subscribe to BPA until later in the draft.

If there was poor character, a poor work ethic, uncoachable, they probably wouldn't be drafted or drafted much later. Given all their players were picked up, that's less likely the issue here. It's simply about what they value and what they prioritized. Simple as that.

You are making assumptions of OL available based off of some online "draft analysts analysis" and your own. That doesn't mean the 31 other teams all saw it like that and also had similar rankings.

You have already concluded how exactly this franchise ranks players without ever having been a part of their pre draft and scouting processes.

Assumptions are not facts. And without facts, you can't prove your theories. It's as simple as that.

Not really...there's an entire Draft forum in here and it's serious business over there. You should check it out. j/k

Facts are, they didn't take one and they rarely do esp. in the talent rounds. That's all that matters.

Originally posted by NCommand:
We've been the #1 defense since ShanaLynch got here. Defense isn't the issue...unless there's 7 minutes left in a Superbowl, of course.

We were the #1 passing offense in DVOA too. But you ignore that

Secondary hurt us in 19 SB and 21 NFC title game more than the O line did.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Not really...there's an entire Draft forum in here and it's serious business over there. You should check it out. j/k

Facts are, they didn't take one and they rarely do esp. in the talent rounds. That's all that matters.

But taking 5th round cbs and signing undrafted FA safety journeyman is investing. Guess those "talent rounds" don't extend to dbs. Shocking.

Originally posted by evil:
Exactly.

Former Patriots scout Jim Nagy on the Pats small board :

"Going back to my time in New England, they have a really small draft board," said Nagy. "I mean, it looks like a two-day old turkey. It's picked over. They don't have a lot of names up there. They draft for roles. There are specific roles on that board and once those are gone, what's the point of drafting a player if you don't think he's going to help you that year?"

He added: "A couple of other teams I was with -- much bigger boards. We're talking 75 players maybe in New England in a typical year when other teams have over 300. It varies by team, but when you're working with that small of a draft board you know who you want. You're really focused on those player and once they're gone, that's when you start making those moves."

That's interesting. 75 players huh. That means like 50-60% of the prospects aren't even in their mind while some of the fans are clamoring for people. Hahaha

Originally posted by NCommand:
These coaches and scouts already have that information by the time they are added to this list. In fact, that list is simply to lock in their grades and shore up a few more points/questions the FO has. That's why they are holding those visits, doing zoom meetings, running drills, attending live workouts, etc. with them. They certainly do their research.

But the idea there wasn't any OL available or there weren't any fits, is bunk.

It's more about how they ranked their players which is also by need and priority. As we've seen countless times, they seem to buck the draft environment and go get their need-player be damned even if it's considered overvalued or a reach by the masses. They lock in with full horse blinders on. They don't seem to subscribe to BPA until later in the draft.

If there was poor character, a poor work ethic, uncoachable, they probably wouldn't be drafted or drafted much later. Given all their players were picked up, that's less likely the issue here. It's simply about what they value and what they prioritized. Simple as that.

I'm willing to bet that anyone with questionable character/work ethic or locker room questions - aren't been entertained here anymore.

you can tell by the guys we've drafted the last few years on the type of character they target. They also target guys that love the game if football, like LOVE it. Not just enjoy it or play as a job.

Makes me wonder if we had a pick between 5-10, if we would of taken Carter. Extremely talented and our favorite position group. Haha but questionable character and work ethic.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Not really...there's an entire Draft forum in here and it's serious business over there. You should check it out. j/k

Facts are, they didn't take one and they rarely do esp. in the talent rounds. That's all that matters.

But taking 5th round cbs and signing undrafted FA safety journeyman is investing. Guess those "talent rounds" don't extend to dbs. Shocking.

I hear you here, for sure. They gave up are Witherspoon. At least you got Brown this year and an all pro in Hufunga. That helps.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I hear you here, for sure. They gave up are Witherspoon. At least you got Brown this year and an all pro in Hufunga. That helps.

All pros can't come from 5th round though. Only the talent rounds.