Niners draft Colton McKivitz | OT West Virginia

Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh I agree. If you have an elite QB you'll always have a chance. I'm just talking the other side too and the best combo.

Put it this way...with Brock and Kyle + a tier 1 OL, I think you and I would agree we'd be talking dynasty potential here.

As to the Chiefs, they went from non-tier 1 and getting whipped (by a tier 1 OL that didn't allow a touch on Brady) to Andy Reid instantly revamping their OL to a tier 1 again and winning another Superbowl. Now they don't have that again so I expect them not to win again. Follow the OL. They got beat by the Lions...a tier 1 OL + Goff. LOL.

It matters.

Do you think there is a better formula out there such as elite QB + elite DL?

Pretty sure the pick 6 was the difference in the game. But there's that silly context again.

14 points on offense is a hell of an offensive explosion.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh I agree. If you have an elite QB you'll always have a chance. I'm just talking the other side too and the best combo.

Put it this way...with Brock and Kyle + a tier 1 OL, I think you and I would agree we'd be talking dynasty potential here.

As to the Chiefs, they went from non-tier 1 and getting whipped (by a tier 1 OL that didn't allow a touch on Brady) to Andy Reid instantly revamping their OL to a tier 1 again and winning another Superbowl. Now they don't have that again so I expect them not to win again. Follow the OL. They got beat by the Lions...a tier 1 OL + Goff. LOL.

It matters.

Do you think there is a better formula out there such as elite QB + elite DL?

Pretty sure the pick 6 was the difference in the game. But there's that silly context again.

14 points on offense is a hell of an offensive explosion.

Mahomes WILL always give his team the best chance because he's a first ballot HOF QB but you're also ignoring him running for his life all game and living on the off schedule plays and thinking THAT didn't cost them the game either. Did they have a chance despite that? Absolutely. But no doubt Goff was far more comfortable that game and in the end, that was enough FTW. Give Mahomes his tier 1 OL back and they win easily.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Mahomes WILL always give his team the best chance because he's a first ballot HOF QB but you're also ignoring him running for his life all game and living on the off schedule plays and thinking THAT didn't cost them the game either. Did they have a chance despite that? Absolutely. But no doubt Goff was far more comfortable that game and in the end, that was enough FTW. Give Mahomes his tier 1 OL back and they win easily.

Give him the tier 4 blocking he had in the playoffs and they still win. That Kelce guy helps too.

What cost them the game was the pick 6. Full stop.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Mahomes WILL always give his team the best chance because he's a first ballot HOF QB but you're also ignoring him running for his life all game and living on the off schedule plays and thinking THAT didn't cost them the game either. Did they have a chance despite that? Absolutely. But no doubt Goff was far more comfortable that game and in the end, that was enough FTW. Give Mahomes his tier 1 OL back and they win easily.

Give him the tier 4 blocking he had in the playoffs and they still win. That Kelce guy helps too.

What cost them the game was the pick 6. Full stop.

LOL. Those juggernaut Lions.

Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Those juggernaut Lions.

Nah just a team that won because of the defense performance. Offense was mediocre but enough in end.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by bassmanr:

Originally posted by SLCNiner:
Honest assessment from those who know more about O line than me: if McKivitz struggles again this week, should the team make a move to replace him? Giants pass rush with Thibodeaux could present a problem, but doesn't make me think we lose that game. If McKivitz isn't the answer though, I'd like to have a guy here in time to play that one. It May literally e the difference between playing in Dallas or Santa Clara com January.

He's playing for the Cardinals now and I don't think we have anyone here who could replace him. Which the o line is something I was worried about all offseason. Let's pray he gets better and the oline gels. If not, we may get Purdy injured. The complaint I have is Kyles ego, thinks he can scheme around poor line play. Hopefully it gets better or we're gong to be teased into losing at the end like last 4 years minus the off year wth an injured Jimmy. .

Yup. It'll always end up the same in the end. Kyle CAN scheme around a ton. The QB can help a ton. But at some point, both can only do so much and "talent" will need to stand on its own.

That said, let's keep an eye on that right side. We need more film and reps to review.

We have a different QB. Kyle was scheming around OL and QB lol. He doesn't have to scheme around the QB now. Furthermore, everyone is doing the same because there aren't 64 starting caliber tackles in the NFL and its been that way for years. The people who overcome have elite QBs. We have literally seen all time great QBs win 9 of the last 10 Super Bowls. Meanwhile the QBs that have had the best O-lines in the last 10 years (Prescott, Colts QBs after 2018, and now Jalen Hurts) have done what exactly? And in the case of Hurts, its not lile the Philly O-line suddenly became good. Jalen Hurts elevated his game and the team became the best in the NFC.

That's actually untrue. Stafford, Brady, Mahomes, etc. all had tier 1 OL's when they won their Superbowls. When they didn't, they retired, lost the Superbowl or went 4-13.

You need both. It's a passing league.

That's not to say you can ONLY win this way but it's definitely the best odds/probability.

You're going to see that again this year with Patrick Mahomes. Again.

Saying only elite QB's win dismisses the fact those same elite QB's lost when they didn't have their tier 1 OL.

And the non elite QBs never make it, even while having superior O-lines. See the Colts of the last few years, Cowboys for the better part of 8 or so years, etc.

Also did the Chiefs O-line go from tier 1 to awful in one year? Because they went from winning a Super Bowl (where Mahommes was running for his life for 3+ quarters and on his way to one of his worst games ever) to getting their teeth kicked down their throats one year later, where again, Mahommes was running for his life.

Oh I agree. If you have an elite QB you'll always have a chance. I'm just talking the other side too and the best combo.

Put it this way...with Brock and Kyle + a tier 1 OL, I think you and I would agree we'd be talking dynasty potential here.

As to the Chiefs, they went from non-tier 1 and getting whipped (by a tier 1 OL that didn't allow a touch on Brady) to Andy Reid instantly revamping their OL to a tier 1 again and winning another Superbowl. Now they don't have that again so I expect them not to win again. Follow the OL. They got beat by the Lions...a tier 1 OL + Goff. LOL.

It matters.

Do you think there is a better formula out there such as elite QB + elite DL?

You believe the Chiefs O-line went from tier 1 to non-tier 1 and back, and that is the reason for their success?

As for Brady's O-line vs. The Chiefs in that Super Bowl, Chris Jones is an elite DT and Clark was solid as an edge rusher, but as a unit, they scare no one. It wasn't even a fair fight against the Bucs O-line.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
And the non elite QBs never make it, even while having superior O-lines. See the Colts of the last few years, Cowboys for the better part of 8 or so years, etc.

Also did the Chiefs O-line go from tier 1 to awful in one year? Because they went from winning a Super Bowl (where Mahommes was running for his life for 3+ quarters and on his way to one of his worst games ever) to getting their teeth kicked down their throats one year later, where again, Mahommes was running for his life.

He must consult with Brandon Thorns free content. Give him some time and he'll get back to you, minus the context of course.

Lol

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Mahomes WILL always give his team the best chance because he's a first ballot HOF QB but you're also ignoring him running for his life all game and living on the off schedule plays and thinking THAT didn't cost them the game either. Did they have a chance despite that? Absolutely. But no doubt Goff was far more comfortable that game and in the end, that was enough FTW. Give Mahomes his tier 1 OL back and they win easily.

Give him the tier 4 blocking he had in the playoffs and they still win. That Kelce guy helps too.

What cost them the game was the pick 6. Full stop.

His posts just get worse and worse

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Those juggernaut Lions.

Nah just a team that won because of the defense performance. Offense was mediocre but enough in end.

I mean, even Jimmy Garoppolo can overcome a pick-6.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by bassmanr:

Originally posted by SLCNiner:
Honest assessment from those who know more about O line than me: if McKivitz struggles again this week, should the team make a move to replace him? Giants pass rush with Thibodeaux could present a problem, but doesn't make me think we lose that game. If McKivitz isn't the answer though, I'd like to have a guy here in time to play that one. It May literally e the difference between playing in Dallas or Santa Clara com January.

He's playing for the Cardinals now and I don't think we have anyone here who could replace him. Which the o line is something I was worried about all offseason. Let's pray he gets better and the oline gels. If not, we may get Purdy injured. The complaint I have is Kyles ego, thinks he can scheme around poor line play. Hopefully it gets better or we're gong to be teased into losing at the end like last 4 years minus the off year wth an injured Jimmy. .

Yup. It'll always end up the same in the end. Kyle CAN scheme around a ton. The QB can help a ton. But at some point, both can only do so much and "talent" will need to stand on its own.

That said, let's keep an eye on that right side. We need more film and reps to review.

We have a different QB. Kyle was scheming around OL and QB lol. He doesn't have to scheme around the QB now. Furthermore, everyone is doing the same because there aren't 64 starting caliber tackles in the NFL and its been that way for years. The people who overcome have elite QBs. We have literally seen all time great QBs win 9 of the last 10 Super Bowls. Meanwhile the QBs that have had the best O-lines in the last 10 years (Prescott, Colts QBs after 2018, and now Jalen Hurts) have done what exactly? And in the case of Hurts, its not lile the Philly O-line suddenly became good. Jalen Hurts elevated his game and the team became the best in the NFC.

That's actually untrue. Stafford, Brady, Mahomes, etc. all had tier 1 OL's when they won their Superbowls. When they didn't, they retired, lost the Superbowl or went 4-13.

You need both. It's a passing league.

That's not to say you can ONLY win this way but it's definitely the best odds/probability.

You're going to see that again this year with Patrick Mahomes. Again.

Saying only elite QB's win dismisses the fact those same elite QB's lost when they didn't have their tier 1 OL.

And the non elite QBs never make it, even while having superior O-lines. See the Colts of the last few years, Cowboys for the better part of 8 or so years, etc.

Also did the Chiefs O-line go from tier 1 to awful in one year? Because they went from winning a Super Bowl (where Mahommes was running for his life for 3+ quarters and on his way to one of his worst games ever) to getting their teeth kicked down their throats one year later, where again, Mahommes was running for his life.

Oh I agree. If you have an elite QB you'll always have a chance. I'm just talking the other side too and the best combo.

Put it this way...with Brock and Kyle + a tier 1 OL, I think you and I would agree we'd be talking dynasty potential here.

As to the Chiefs, they went from non-tier 1 and getting whipped (by a tier 1 OL that didn't allow a touch on Brady) to Andy Reid instantly revamping their OL to a tier 1 again and winning another Superbowl. Now they don't have that again so I expect them not to win again. Follow the OL. They got beat by the Lions...a tier 1 OL + Goff. LOL.

It matters.

Do you think there is a better formula out there such as elite QB + elite DL?

You believe the Chiefs O-line went from tier 1 to non-tier 1 and back, and that is the reason for their success?

As for Brady's O-line vs. The Chiefs in that Super Bowl, Chris Jones is an elite DT and Clark was solid as an edge rusher, but as a unit, they scare no one. It wasn't even a fair fight against the Bucs O-line.

That's exactly what happened (and happening).

That's correct. If only we had the Bucs OL perhaps we'd have a chip too.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh I agree. If you have an elite QB you'll always have a chance. I'm just talking the other side too and the best combo.

Put it this way...with Brock and Kyle + a tier 1 OL, I think you and I would agree we'd be talking dynasty potential here.

As to the Chiefs, they went from non-tier 1 and getting whipped (by a tier 1 OL that didn't allow a touch on Brady) to Andy Reid instantly revamping their OL to a tier 1 again and winning another Superbowl. Now they don't have that again so I expect them not to win again. Follow the OL. They got beat by the Lions...a tier 1 OL + Goff. LOL.

It matters.

Do you think there is a better formula out there such as elite QB + elite DL?

I have to mention the Baltimore Ravens OLine back in the 2000's. I think they were an elite OLine, if I recall correctly. Their QB wasn't anything special, but he was carried for sure - by an elite defense and a great OLine. So back to the OLine vs QB debate - you have to have both to have a great shot at winning a super bowl (as well as defense and special teams). Complete teams win the Superbowl, just that the Ravens were so far ahead on defense and OLine that - they could afford an average QB to be calling the plays.

Now, in today's NFL game, with the pass happy rules and the QB protection rules, you *have to have* an offense, and with that offense comes the QB. You can't have a run dominated offense with the rules favoring to pass so much. Teams like the '85 bears or the 2000 Baltimore Ravens, don't have a shot at Super Bowls, nowadays in my opinion. Defenses are shackled by all the new concussion rules, so because offenses are such a big factor in winning games, you have to have a good OLine - at minimum - to even make it into the playoffs. Winning super bowls are another matter entirely - you need a complete team to win a super bowl, by definition, a Super Bowl team has no weaknesses - if it had one - it wouldn't be a super bowl winner.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh I agree. If you have an elite QB you'll always have a chance. I'm just talking the other side too and the best combo.

Put it this way...with Brock and Kyle + a tier 1 OL, I think you and I would agree we'd be talking dynasty potential here.

As to the Chiefs, they went from non-tier 1 and getting whipped (by a tier 1 OL that didn't allow a touch on Brady) to Andy Reid instantly revamping their OL to a tier 1 again and winning another Superbowl. Now they don't have that again so I expect them not to win again. Follow the OL. They got beat by the Lions...a tier 1 OL + Goff. LOL.

It matters.

Do you think there is a better formula out there such as elite QB + elite DL?

I have to mention the Baltimore Ravens OLine back in the 2000's. I think they were an elite OLine, if I recall correctly. Their QB wasn't anything special, but he was carried for sure - by an elite defense and a great OLine. So back to the OLine vs QB debate - you have to have both to have a great shot at winning a super bowl (as well as defense and special teams). Complete teams win the Superbowl, just that the Ravens were so far ahead on defense and OLine that - they could afford an average QB to be calling the plays.

Now, in today's NFL game, with the pass happy rules and the QB protection rules, you *have to have* an offense, and with that offense comes the QB. You can't have a run dominated offense with the rules favoring to pass so much. Teams like the '85 bears or the 2000 Baltimore Ravens, don't have a shot at Super Bowls, nowadays in my opinion. Defenses are shackled by all the new concussion rules, so because offenses are such a big factor in winning games, you have to have a good OLine - at minimum - to even make it into the playoffs. Winning super bowls are another matter entirely - you need a complete team to win a super bowl, by definition, a Super Bowl team has no weaknesses - if it had one - it wouldn't be a super bowl winner.

I'm surprised none of these guys have offered up a better formula.

Say...like...elite QB + elite HC.

Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm surprised none of these guys have offered up a better formula.

Say...like...elite QB + elite HC.

Not have a tier 2 qb play like a tier 7 one in playoffs for starters.

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's exactly what happened (and happening).

That's correct. If only we had the Bucs OL perhaps we'd have a chip too.

Or the Bucs Qb or secondary.

Once again, completely singularly focused in the blame.