Rank The Importance of a Fielding a Dominant Pass Defense in This Cover 3 Defense

So one of the biggest complaints from fans or some sites like PFF were that we did not address the CB position in free agency or draft. But in this defense, exactly how important is high level CB play? Is it more important than the pass rush? Is it more important than the coverage in the back end? Is it more important than having coverage backers? I'm really curious to hear the consensus here and if there even is one.

Originally posted by CullyInTheHouse:
So one of the biggest complaints from fans or some sites like PFF were that we did not address the CB position in free agency or draft. But in this defense, exactly how important is high level CB play? Is it more important than the pass rush? Is it more important than the coverage in the back end? Is it more important than having coverage backers? I'm really curious to hear the consensus here and if there even is one.

A zone dominant defense has to prioritize DL pass rush over the coverage players. Not that coverage isn't important, but an effective zone defense starts with a good 4 man pass rush to allow for 7 in coverage. So for this 49er defense that is so zone dominant:
1. DL pass rush
2. coverage LBs
3. CBs/safeties

You can debate CB being more important than LB coverage, but with the game being played so much in the middle of the field and outside throws being the more difficult throw, I would put LB coverage slightly above CB coverage. I can point to the Fangio 49ers (majority zone defense) as evidence how an effective 4 man pass rush, excellent coverage LBs, and solid DBs can make a top defense.

Things would be different for a defense that wants to play mainly man coverage.

Originally posted by thl408:
A zone dominant defense has to prioritize DL pass rush over the coverage players. Not that coverage isn't important, but an effective zone defense starts with a good 4 man pass rush to allow for 7 in coverage. So for this 49er defense that is so zone dominant:
1. DL pass rush
2. coverage LBs
3. CBs/safeties

You can debate CB being more important than LB coverage, but with the game being played so much in the middle of the field and outside throws being the more difficult throw, I would put LB coverage slightly above CB coverage. I can point to the Fangio 49ers (majority zone defense) as evidence how an effective 4 man pass rush, excellent coverage LBs, and solid DBs can make a top defense.

Things would be different for a defense that wants to play mainly man coverage.

I agree, though I would put safety play a little ahead of LBs in this scheme. But you need to have smart, disciplined safeties on the back end that don't allow anything deep and need coverage backers that can cover the middle of the field.

Pass rush is any zone defense, especially this one is going to be the most important factor. I know some truly believe in coverage>pass rush, but in this scheme pass rush is a clear #1 and everything follows after that. That is not to say you don't need good cover corners, just don't think you need great corners to field a great pass defense. Seahawks had a bunch of corners opposite of Sherman during their run and most did nothing elsewhere. Not by accident either. Even if Sherman's play slips a bit, the defense can still be very dominant.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by CullyInTheHouse:
So one of the biggest complaints from fans or some sites like PFF were that we did not address the CB position in free agency or draft. But in this defense, exactly how important is high level CB play? Is it more important than the pass rush? Is it more important than the coverage in the back end? Is it more important than having coverage backers? I'm really curious to hear the consensus here and if there even is one.

A zone dominant defense has to prioritize DL pass rush over the coverage players. Not that coverage isn't important, but an effective zone defense starts with a good 4 man pass rush to allow for 7 in coverage. So for this 49er defense that is so zone dominant:
1. DL pass rush
2. coverage LBs
3. CBs/safeties

You can debate CB being more important than LB coverage, but with the game being played so much in the middle of the field and outside throws being the more difficult throw, I would put LB coverage slightly above CB coverage. I can point to the Fangio 49ers (majority zone defense) as evidence how an effective 4 man pass rush, excellent coverage LBs, and solid DBs can make a top defense.

Things would be different for a defense that wants to play mainly man coverage.

Great post.

To see an example of this look at our D the year before we got Dee Ford and Bosa. Our DB's couldn't get it done for all of those reasons. If you have to send pressure you take someone out of coverage and if the opposing QB can find the holes in your zone coverage... forget about it.

When you can get to the QB with the front four you can do a lot more on the back end in regards to zone drops & coverages.

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Great post.

To see an example of this look at our D the year before we got Dee Ford and Bosa. Our DB's couldn't get it done for all of those reasons. If you have to send pressure you take someone out of coverage and if the opposing QB can find the holes in your zone coverage... forget about it.

When you can get to the QB with the front four you can do a lot more on the back end in regards to zone drops & coverages.

Pass rush is obviously crucial, but Ward/Tartt being as good as they were and then the type of coverage we got from Warner/Kwon was a game changer. Greenlaw filled in nicely but clear drop off in coverage with Kwon.

But anyways, corner play in any defense is important. But I don't think the team passing on a corner is by accident. You get solid corner play and then excel in other areas, you will be just fine.

A dominant pass rush can make an average secondary look great. A bad pass rush can make a great secondary look average.

Originally posted by JTB1974:
A dominant pass rush can make an average secondary look great. A bad pass rush can make a great secondary look average.

Don't think that is true for every scheme. But that's why I asked for THIS scheme what people rate the highest in terms of importance.

Originally posted by CullyInTheHouse:

Originally posted by JTB1974:
A dominant pass rush can make an average secondary look great. A bad pass rush can make a great secondary look average.

Don't think that is true for every scheme. But that's why I asked for THIS scheme what people rate the highest in terms of importance.

I think this scheme really works well with two good dominant corners and decent but not outstanding coverage linebackers. I think with good corners, you can vary the coverages a bit more and be more unpredictable in your coverages vs being predictable. Once you become predictable in your coverages against mobile QB's (or any QB's in general), it's a losing proposition. Pass coverage is *both* pass rush and pass coverage - a good offensive scheme will pick on the weaknesses and exploit it. In my opinion, you have to have **Both** Good DB's and Good pass rush - linebackers are secondary. Having said that, Dre Greenlaw and Kwon are more like Linebacker/Safety hybrids - so it begs the question - are these two linebackers oversized safeties or undersized linebackers.

You need really strong cover LBs for this scheme to work because that's precisely where OC's attack.

Pass rush > LBs > DBs

The team currently has good coverage linebackers

If you notice they are mostly all in the Tampa 2 mold

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by CullyInTheHouse:

Originally posted by JTB1974:
A dominant pass rush can make an average secondary look great. A bad pass rush can make a great secondary look average.

Don't think that is true for every scheme. But that's why I asked for THIS scheme what people rate the highest in terms of importance.

I think this scheme really works well with two good dominant corners and decent but not outstanding coverage linebackers. I think with good corners, you can vary the coverages a bit more and be more unpredictable in your coverages vs being predictable. Once you become predictable in your coverages against mobile QB's (or any QB's in general), it's a losing proposition. Pass coverage is *both* pass rush and pass coverage - a good offensive scheme will pick on the weaknesses and exploit it. In my opinion, you have to have **Both** Good DB's and Good pass rush - linebackers are secondary. Having said that, Dre Greenlaw and Kwon are more like Linebacker/Safety hybrids - so it begs the question - are these two linebackers oversized safeties or undersized linebackers.

I think most agree that DL pass rush is priority #1 when fielding an effective zone defense. So let's say we have that. If your 4 man pass rush is good, it makes sense for an offense to attack the short/intermediate areas of the field since it's more difficult to attack deep/outside areas of the field. This is why I placed the LBs patrolling the Hook zones in a Cover3 at a higher importance than the CBs. Cover3 invites the shorter throws so those Hook defenders have to be quick to react and limit RAC.
An argument can be made that the free safety is more important in Cover3 than the CBs.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by CullyInTheHouse:

Originally posted by JTB1974:
A dominant pass rush can make an average secondary look great. A bad pass rush can make a great secondary look average.

Don't think that is true for every scheme. But that's why I asked for THIS scheme what people rate the highest in terms of importance.

I think this scheme really works well with two good dominant corners and decent but not outstanding coverage linebackers. I think with good corners, you can vary the coverages a bit more and be more unpredictable in your coverages vs being predictable. Once you become predictable in your coverages against mobile QB's (or any QB's in general), it's a losing proposition. Pass coverage is *both* pass rush and pass coverage - a good offensive scheme will pick on the weaknesses and exploit it. In my opinion, you have to have **Both** Good DB's and Good pass rush - linebackers are secondary. Having said that, Dre Greenlaw and Kwon are more like Linebacker/Safety hybrids - so it begs the question - are these two linebackers oversized safeties or undersized linebackers.

I think most agree that DL pass rush is priority #1 when fielding an effective zone defense. So let's say we have that. If your 4 man pass rush is good, it makes sense for an offense to attack the short/intermediate areas of the field since it's more difficult to attack deep/outside areas of the field. This is why I placed the LBs patrolling the Hook zones in a Cover3 at a higher importance than the CBs. Cover3 invites the shorter throws so those Hook defenders have to be quick to react and limit RAC.
An argument can be made that the free safety is more important in Cover3 than the CBs.

Pass defense by the original poster was too broadly defined in my opinion. Pass defense can be nickel, dime, quarter. In those three scenarios, the linebackers are progressively taken out till you have basically one linebacker and the rest either DLinemen or DB's. In that sense, the linebackers lose importance as the down and distance increases and the DB's gain in importance. In essence, pass defense is all about coverage and pass rush (vs a low emphasis on stopping the run), and in those three situations I stated above, DB's are more important than linebackers.

Now in base, that's a totally different question. In base defense with the scheme we are predominantly use, then yes the WCO does stress the coverage linebackers more than the DB's (generally, but not on every pass). I would still say between a coverage linebacker and a coverage corner, I'd rather have a coverage corner vs a coverage linebacker. On first down, if your DB can knock down a pass, it's 2nd and 10 and now you take out the LB"s and add in more DB's and it becomes much harder for an opposing offense to pass - specially if you already have two lock down corners. If you have a lockdown corner, your corner can switch responsibilities with the LB and man-cover the WR and the LB drop into zone and so on - to vary the coverages. I just think with good DB's (vs good LB's) your pass defense - in general - is stronger.

The 49ers don't ever pull their LBs off the field, so not sure why you're accounting for something that doesn't happen in this defense.

Lockdown man corners are hard to find and are expensive.

Finding zone coverage CBs are without question cheaper and you don't have to spend a premium on them.

This defenses is based around that DL, I believe we played in some sort of zone shell 70% of the time last yr (more man on 3rd down).

This defenses also requires LBers that can cover as well.

Seattle is a great example, when's the last time they spent a high pick on a CB?

Now If you look at defenses that run that Patriot D (NE/Lions/Miami) they require those man corners and often dish out the cash (Miami ) and draft picks for them.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by CullyInTheHouse:

Originally posted by JTB1974:
A dominant pass rush can make an average secondary look great. A bad pass rush can make a great secondary look average.

Don't think that is true for every scheme. But that's why I asked for THIS scheme what people rate the highest in terms of importance.

I think this scheme really works well with two good dominant corners and decent but not outstanding coverage linebackers. I think with good corners, you can vary the coverages a bit more and be more unpredictable in your coverages vs being predictable. Once you become predictable in your coverages against mobile QB's (or any QB's in general), it's a losing proposition. Pass coverage is *both* pass rush and pass coverage - a good offensive scheme will pick on the weaknesses and exploit it. In my opinion, you have to have **Both** Good DB's and Good pass rush - linebackers are secondary. Having said that, Dre Greenlaw and Kwon are more like Linebacker/Safety hybrids - so it begs the question - are these two linebackers oversized safeties or undersized linebackers.

I think most agree that DL pass rush is priority #1 when fielding an effective zone defense. So let's say we have that. If your 4 man pass rush is good, it makes sense for an offense to attack the short/intermediate areas of the field since it's more difficult to attack deep/outside areas of the field. This is why I placed the LBs patrolling the Hook zones in a Cover3 at a higher importance than the CBs. Cover3 invites the shorter throws so those Hook defenders have to be quick to react and limit RAC.
An argument can be made that the free safety is more important in Cover3 than the CBs.

Pass defense by the original poster was too broadly defined in my opinion. Pass defense can be nickel, dime, quarter. In those three scenarios, the linebackers are progressively taken out till you have basically one linebacker and the rest either DLinemen or DB's. In that sense, the linebackers lose importance as the down and distance increases and the DB's gain in importance. In essence, pass defense is all about coverage and pass rush (vs a low emphasis on stopping the run), and in those three situations I stated above, DB's are more important than linebackers.

Now in base, that's a totally different question. In base defense with the scheme we are predominantly use, then yes the WCO does stress the coverage linebackers more than the DB's (generally, but not on every pass). I would still say between a coverage linebacker and a coverage corner, I'd rather have a coverage corner vs a coverage linebacker. On first down, if your DB can knock down a pass, it's 2nd and 10 and now you take out the LB"s and add in more DB's and it becomes much harder for an opposing offense to pass - specially if you already have two lock down corners. If you have a lockdown corner, your corner can switch responsibilities with the LB and man-cover the WR and the LB drop into zone and so on - to vary the coverages. I just think with good DB's (vs good LB's) your pass defense - in general - is stronger.

Thread title mentions Cover3 so I was speaking specifically to that.

With four underneath zone defenders to cover six underneath zones, those middle of the field Hook defenders have a lot of area to cover and less reaction time to do so since it's short, directly over the middle. I agree with the bolded statement, but in order to get to 3rd & 8 you have to do well on 1st and 2nd downs. Those are the downs when an offense would be content with completing a 3 yard pass over the middle and hoping to get YAC. That's what makes those LBs so important. The CBs in a Cover3 are usually defending the deep sideline, one of the toughest areas to attack as an offense simply due to distance.