I could be reading too much into this and please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it appears from a schematic standpoint that defensive lineman who fit more naturally within a 3-4 scheme fit best with the wide 9 because of the natural ability to bull rush as opposed to more of a finesse pass rush in the likes of Aaron Donald and DeForest Buckner.
Basically meaning it's more about creating pressure on the quarterback as opposed to trying to get the sack.
Someone who's more educated on this can elaborate a little bit more please.
Thanks!
[ Edited by SlowDownBoy on Jul 24, 2020 at 1:03 AM ]
Kind of. The extra spacing of W9 allows more athletic DL to find gaps and use their quickness and for the 250-260 pound edge rushers to use their quickness, athleticism and build up enough speed to power to bull rush tackles 80 pounds heavier.
The easiest way to think of it for me is to think of players who fit each role perfectly:
Joey/Nick Bosa - Dana Stubblefield - Bryant Young - Charles Haley
But to your point, Saleh comes from a different version of Seifert's defense. Aside from adopting W9 full time, his 3 tech is a monster at 325 pounds and 6'5"+. Usually that's for a smaller interior rusher who wins on quickness by shooting gaps.
He does seem to lean on the bull rush a lot (AA, Jones, Buckner, Bosa, etc.) but I think that's because of his bigger-is-better philosophy.
PS: Courtesy of DonnieDarko, here's Kyle talking about why he liked the Seattle defense (originally Seifert's), now Saleh's version from Jacksonville...the foundation BUT he noted it constantly needs to evolve, hence adding W9 full time and with Woods, adding more 2 S shells, etc. Let's see how it evolves more this year. More dime? More man? More base?
Kind of. The extra spacing of W9 allows more athletic DL to find gaps and use their quickness and for the 250-260 pound edge rushers to use their quickness, athleticism and build up enough speed to power to bull rush tackles 80 pounds heavier.
The easiest way to think of it for me is to think of players who fit each role perfectly:
Joey/Nick Bosa - Dana Stubblefield - Bryant Young - Charles Haley
But to your point, Saleh comes from a different version of Seifert's defense. Aside from adopting W9 full time, his 3 tech is a monster at 325 pounds and 6'5"+. Usually that's for a smaller interior rusher who wins on quickness by shooting gaps.
He does seem to lean on the bull rush a lot (AA, Jones, Buckner, Bosa, etc.) but I think that's because of his bigger-is-better philosophy.
PS: Courtesy of DonnieDarko, here's Kyle talking about why he liked the Seattle defense (originally Seifert's), now Saleh's version from Jacksonville...the foundation BUT he noted it constantly needs to evolve, hence adding W9 full time and with Woods, adding more 2 S shells, etc. Let's see how it evolves more this year. More dime? More man? More base?
In the Wide 9, I though that the Edge Rushers (being OUTSIDE the outside shoulder of the Tackle) has to also set the outside edge in run support. This forces the RB inside where the faster / not bigger linebackers can fly to make the tackle
Thank god Bosa is the prototype. He is a great run supporter / stuffer and truly a generational rusher. Its like if you asked Michelangelo to sculpt the perfect DE. Instead of David and his small junk, you get Nick and his Bick D***
Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:
I could be reading too much into this and please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it appears from a schematic standpoint that defensive lineman who fit more naturally within a 3-4 scheme fit best with the wide 9 because of the natural ability to bull rush as opposed to more of a finesse pass rush in the likes of Aaron Donald and DeForest Buckner.
Basically meaning it's more about creating pressure on the quarterback as opposed to trying to get the sack.
Someone who's more educated on this can elaborate a little bit more please.
Thanks!
Not really. 3-4 D-Linemen are two gappers who's role is to hold ground and absorb double teams so the linebackers can flow to the gaps and pursue the ball carrier or QB. The wide 9 is a George Pearls steeler gap penetration variant defense which needs more sleek, explosive, fast DLinemen shooting the gaps and gumming up the run blocking angles to prevent the runs. From a scheme point of view, they are *always* pass rushing and never defending against the run. They allow their pass rush to be what stops the run by being in the backfield before the RB can have a chance to get going. 3-4 D-Linemen are big huge tree stumps that can't be moved, vis Wide Nine D-Linemen that are more like oversized sprinters. That's one reason the Wide-9 is a horrible scheme to defend the run with.
I could be reading too much into this and please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it appears from a schematic standpoint that defensive lineman who fit more naturally within a 3-4 scheme fit best with the wide 9 because of the natural ability to bull rush as opposed to more of a finesse pass rush in the likes of Aaron Donald and DeForest Buckner.
Basically meaning it's more about creating pressure on the quarterback as opposed to trying to get the sack.
Someone who's more educated on this can elaborate a little bit more please.
Thanks!
Not really. 3-4 D-Linemen are two gappers who's role is to hold ground and absorb double teams so the linebackers can flow to the gaps and pursue the ball carrier or QB. The wide 9 is a George Pearls steeler gap penetration variant defense which needs more sleek, explosive, fast DLinemen shooting the gaps and gumming up the run blocking angles to prevent the runs. From a scheme point of view, they are *always* pass rushing and never defending against the run. They allow their pass rush to be what stops the run by being in the backfield before the RB can have a chance to get going. 3-4 D-Linemen are big huge tree stumps that can't be moved, vis Wide Nine D-Linemen that are more like oversized sprinters. That's one reason the Wide-9 is a horrible scheme to defend the run with.
Given that they drafted Javon kinlaw seems to be a little bit of the opposite cuz clearly he was brought in because of his bulrush capacity
Much in the same manner as arik Armstead
Julian Taylor
Jones
Kerry Hyder
Blair
The undrafted rookie of Nebraska they brought in
All guys who have exceptional bull rush ability good size and are not super fast or rely on finesse moves
Now Dee Ford you still on the team but he only plays on a part-time basis and Bosa is not as fast as Ford but has great bulrush capacity
Players that have bulrush ability forcing the offensive lineman back into the quarterback and running back negate the Run itself
Or at least I believe that's the hope
[ Edited by SlowDownBoy on Jul 26, 2020 at 4:46 PM ]
Originally posted by SlowDownBoy:
Given that they drafted Javon kinlaw seems to be a little bit of the opposite cuz clearly he was brought in because of his bulrush capacity
Much in the same manner as arik Armstead
Julian Taylor
Jones
Kerry Hyder
Blair
The undrafted rookie of Nebraska they brought in
All guys who have exceptional bull rush ability good size and are not super fast or rely on finesse moves
Now Dee Ford you still on the team but he only plays on a part-time basis and Bosa is not as fast as Ford but has great bulrush capacity
Players that have bulrush ability forcing the offensive lineman back into the quarterback and running back negate the Run itself
Or at least I believe that's the hope
It's gap penetration, not bull rushes that got Kinlaw on the 49ers.
2) Gap Control - 1 Gap Football: Just as it says, Kiffin's lines attack single gaps from their odd fronts. If a man successfully penetrates his gap, he's controlled it - assuming he's a capable tackler.
3) Defensive Line in Attack Mode: Probably not something you think of when you consider the Tampa 2 a conservative scheme. In reality, Kiffin wants his players to attack first and think later, hopefully once they're in the backfield with their arms around the ballcarrier. This type of aggression should be a change from the 'cerebral' play required in some of Rob Ryan's more elaborate plans. https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/1/29/3929390/dallas-cowboys-inside-monte-kiffin-playbook-philosophies-tampa-2
"When Pete Carroll came in, he basically adopted our system," Seifert said on the latest 49ers Insider Podcast on NBC Sports Bay Area.
"Pete had a unique way of injecting his own philosophies to a point where we could see that things he was doing certainly fit in with our system but took it a step further."
Seifert added, "He got to a point he was pretty much running his own ship and I pretty much backed off."
In two seasons with Carroll as defensive coordinator, the 49ers ranked Nos. 1 and 3 in the NFL in total defense. Carroll parlayed his success with the 49ers into a head-coaching job with the New England Patriots, then later at USC and, since 2010, with the Seattle Seahawks. Saleh picked up the position from Carroll. The system Saleh brings with him is based in large part on the scheme he learned under Carroll's direction. https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/george-seiferts-influence-felt-49ers-new-defensive-scheme
Carroll, whose Seattle Seahawks defenses have allowed the league's fewest points for four straight seasons, is asked often about the roots of his philosophy. And nearly every time, his response mentions Kiffin and the one year in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
"I owe him everything," said Carroll, now the oldest head coach in the NFL at 65. "He taught me everything I know about defense." https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/22971/pete-carrolls-defensive-principles-stem-from-1977-arkansas-experience
New defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin will be using his version of the much-hyped "Tampa-2." How does it differ from the schemes Tom Landry and Jimmy Johnson ran? In the former's case, quite a bit. In the latter's case, not as much, though some basic details differ. Today, we'll look at Kiffin's base under-front, with it's slant nose tackle.
[...]The next tweak in 4-3 play came in Pittsburgh, where defensive line coach George Perles made an adjustment to the stacked front. Rather than putting his linemen head-up against a guard or center, Perles took his best lineman, perennial All Pro Joe Greene, and lined him up in an A-gap,at a 45 degree angle towards the center's earhole. [...] Look at Monte Kiffin's defenses for Dungy and Jon Gruden in Tampa, and Dungy's Indy Colts units and they all feature a slant nose, https://cowboysnation.com/2013/05/the-kiffin-4-3-sprinters-scheme.html
The San Francisco 49ers' defense will have a new look in 2019, and the team hopes their new scheme, when combined with their offseason roster additions, will result in success for a group that has underperformed over the past two seasons.[...] When asked why the team decided to transition to a "wide-nine look," Saleh's answer wasn't that of a decision-maker:
With the way Kocurek is teaching, I just like the decisiveness, the lack of grey area, the conviction and the tenacity at which they play… https://ninernoise.com/2019/06/14/49ers-wide-nine-defense-robert-saleh-scheme/2/
2) Gap Control - 1 Gap Football: Just as it says, Kiffin's lines attack single gaps from their odd fronts. If a man successfully penetrates his gap, he's controlled it - assuming he's a capable tackler.
3) Defensive Line in Attack Mode: Probably not something you think of when you consider the Tampa 2 a conservative scheme. In reality, Kiffin wants his players to attack first and think later, hopefully once they're in the backfield with their arms around the ballcarrier. This type of aggression should be a change from the 'cerebral' play required in some of Rob Ryan's more elaborate plans. https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/1/29/3929390/dallas-cowboys-inside-monte-kiffin-playbook-philosophies-tampa-2
"When Pete Carroll came in, he basically adopted our system," Seifert said on the latest 49ers Insider Podcast on NBC Sports Bay Area.
"Pete had a unique way of injecting his own philosophies to a point where we could see that things he was doing certainly fit in with our system but took it a step further."
Seifert added, "He got to a point he was pretty much running his own ship and I pretty much backed off."
In two seasons with Carroll as defensive coordinator, the 49ers ranked Nos. 1 and 3 in the NFL in total defense. Carroll parlayed his success with the 49ers into a head-coaching job with the New England Patriots, then later at USC and, since 2010, with the Seattle Seahawks. Saleh picked up the position from Carroll. The system Saleh brings with him is based in large part on the scheme he learned under Carroll's direction. https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/george-seiferts-influence-felt-49ers-new-defensive-scheme
Carroll, whose Seattle Seahawks defenses have allowed the league's fewest points for four straight seasons, is asked often about the roots of his philosophy. And nearly every time, his response mentions Kiffin and the one year in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
"I owe him everything," said Carroll, now the oldest head coach in the NFL at 65. "He taught me everything I know about defense." https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/22971/pete-carrolls-defensive-principles-stem-from-1977-arkansas-experience
New defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin will be using his version of the much-hyped "Tampa-2." How does it differ from the schemes Tom Landry and Jimmy Johnson ran? In the former's case, quite a bit. In the latter's case, not as much, though some basic details differ. Today, we'll look at Kiffin's base under-front, with it's slant nose tackle.
[...]The next tweak in 4-3 play came in Pittsburgh, where defensive line coach George Perles made an adjustment to the stacked front. Rather than putting his linemen head-up against a guard or center, Perles took his best lineman, perennial All Pro Joe Greene, and lined him up in an A-gap,at a 45 degree angle towards the center's earhole. [...] Look at Monte Kiffin's defenses for Dungy and Jon Gruden in Tampa, and Dungy's Indy Colts units and they all feature a slant nose, https://cowboysnation.com/2013/05/the-kiffin-4-3-sprinters-scheme.html
The San Francisco 49ers' defense will have a new look in 2019, and the team hopes their new scheme, when combined with their offseason roster additions, will result in success for a group that has underperformed over the past two seasons.[...] When asked why the team decided to transition to a "wide-nine look," Saleh's answer wasn't that of a decision-maker:
With the way Kocurek is teaching, I just like the decisiveness, the lack of grey area, the conviction and the tenacity at which they play… https://ninernoise.com/2019/06/14/49ers-wide-nine-defense-robert-saleh-scheme/2/
2) Gap Control - 1 Gap Football: Just as it says, Kiffin's lines attack single gaps from their odd fronts. If a man successfully penetrates his gap, he's controlled it - assuming he's a capable tackler.
3) Defensive Line in Attack Mode: Probably not something you think of when you consider the Tampa 2 a conservative scheme. In reality, Kiffin wants his players to attack first and think later, hopefully once they're in the backfield with their arms around the ballcarrier. This type of aggression should be a change from the 'cerebral' play required in some of Rob Ryan's more elaborate plans. https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/1/29/3929390/dallas-cowboys-inside-monte-kiffin-playbook-philosophies-tampa-2
"When Pete Carroll came in, he basically adopted our system," Seifert said on the latest 49ers Insider Podcast on NBC Sports Bay Area.
"Pete had a unique way of injecting his own philosophies to a point where we could see that things he was doing certainly fit in with our system but took it a step further."
Seifert added, "He got to a point he was pretty much running his own ship and I pretty much backed off."
In two seasons with Carroll as defensive coordinator, the 49ers ranked Nos. 1 and 3 in the NFL in total defense. Carroll parlayed his success with the 49ers into a head-coaching job with the New England Patriots, then later at USC and, since 2010, with the Seattle Seahawks. Saleh picked up the position from Carroll. The system Saleh brings with him is based in large part on the scheme he learned under Carroll's direction. https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/george-seiferts-influence-felt-49ers-new-defensive-scheme
Carroll, whose Seattle Seahawks defenses have allowed the league's fewest points for four straight seasons, is asked often about the roots of his philosophy. And nearly every time, his response mentions Kiffin and the one year in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
"I owe him everything," said Carroll, now the oldest head coach in the NFL at 65. "He taught me everything I know about defense." https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/22971/pete-carrolls-defensive-principles-stem-from-1977-arkansas-experience
New defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin will be using his version of the much-hyped "Tampa-2." How does it differ from the schemes Tom Landry and Jimmy Johnson ran? In the former's case, quite a bit. In the latter's case, not as much, though some basic details differ. Today, we'll look at Kiffin's base under-front, with it's slant nose tackle.
[...]The next tweak in 4-3 play came in Pittsburgh, where defensive line coach George Perles made an adjustment to the stacked front. Rather than putting his linemen head-up against a guard or center, Perles took his best lineman, perennial All Pro Joe Greene, and lined him up in an A-gap,at a 45 degree angle towards the center's earhole. [...] Look at Monte Kiffin's defenses for Dungy and Jon Gruden in Tampa, and Dungy's Indy Colts units and they all feature a slant nose, https://cowboysnation.com/2013/05/the-kiffin-4-3-sprinters-scheme.html
The San Francisco 49ers' defense will have a new look in 2019, and the team hopes their new scheme, when combined with their offseason roster additions, will result in success for a group that has underperformed over the past two seasons.[...] When asked why the team decided to transition to a "wide-nine look," Saleh's answer wasn't that of a decision-maker:
With the way Kocurek is teaching, I just like the decisiveness, the lack of grey area, the conviction and the tenacity at which they play… https://ninernoise.com/2019/06/14/49ers-wide-nine-defense-robert-saleh-scheme/2/
.
Fair enough
Thank you sir
Two things stand out to me. The 3T lined up in a gap at a 45-degree angle and Saleh, being asked to evolve (adopt a W9). I can't find a single video out there but Bryant Young was a master of this. Just before the snap, he'd slide over to a gap, turn sideways, 45-degrees and blow through the gap and just wreck everything in the backfield. That's how I thought Saleh would use Solomon Thomas. As it turned out, he wanted to go even bigger than Buckner but still have the athleticism and quickness to shoot gaps like BY. Kinlaw should be able to play to his own strength here right out of the gap. Shoot first, think later.
Next, Kyle, like you saw with our run game, loves evolving. Adding Kocurek and his W9 and Woods 2 deep S and coverages really helped build off Saleh's own Kiffin/Seifert/Carroll and his big-personnel philosophy from Jacksonville.
In short, the foundation remains the same and it's sound like Kyle likes BUT it's evolving in both personnel and schemes. So I'm certainly looking forward to seeing if it evolves even further this year.
More Ford on first downs (29 teams pass more than run on first downs), more dime, more man, more 2 deep S's, more split coverages, etc?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Two things stand out to me. The 3T lined up in a gap at a 45-degree angle and Saleh, being asked to evolve (adopt a W9). I can't find a single video out there but Bryant Young was a master of this. Just before the snap, he'd slide over to a gap, turn sideways, 45-degrees and blow through the gap and just wreck everything in the backfield. That's how I thought Saleh would use Solomon Thomas. As it turned out, he wanted to go even bigger than Buckner but still have the athleticism and quickness to shoot gaps like BY. Kinlaw should be able to play to his own strength here right out of the gap. Shoot first, think later.
Next, Kyle, like you saw with our run game, loves evolving. Adding Kocurek and his W9 and Woods 2 deep S and coverages really helped build off Saleh's own Kiffin/Seifert/Carroll and his big-personnel philosophy from Jacksonville.
In short, the foundation remains the same and it's sound like Kyle likes BUT it's evolving in both personnel and schemes. So I'm certainly looking forward to seeing if it evolves even further this year.
More Ford on first downs (29 teams pass more than run on first downs), more dime, more man, more 2 deep S's, more split coverages, etc?
Anyone have a guess what we might see?
I'm a big fan of the zone blitz, specially if you have linebackers from all over the place blitzing from unexpected places. You don't zone blitz guys like Aaron, Tom Brady, or Brees often, because these are the guys who eat those kinds of zone blitzes up because they've faced them a million times both in practice and in games, but guys that are newbie rookies or 2nd years that are struggling, you can zone blitz them. Why the zone blitz? Greenlaw, Warner, and Kwon are *fast* and can get there - and if the protections are shifted to one side or the other, it can create a lot of mistakes on the rookie or 2nd year QB. Even Aaron had trouble against our zone blitz in the playoffs last year. 2nd reason, the two division rival midgets. I hate them eating up our zones and just keeping the plays alive and living to throw another day, or scoring on us on a deep pass where he had a ton of time running around back there like a chicken that can't be caught. I think the zone blitz, you have to guess where he's going, but if you guess right, it's a possible 7+ yard loss, or at least gives your defenders time to man up while the two midgets are scrambling trying to get away vs setting up and throwing against our straight zones. I think if Ford, Kinlaw, DJ Jones, Armstead and
Bosa are healthy, the QB already is limited in his time in the pocket. Add in the zone blitz and you force these Midgets who like to run, to *run* instead of pass.
Also, the zone blitz drops odd DLinemen men into coverage, so there is the chance that the midgets misread the coverage and throw it into our dropping DLinemen. A guy like Kinlaw can cover a TE in his area for a brief period in his drop zone. A guy like Bosa/Ford can cover a RB on a flair out for a brief period. I just like that aggressive defense better than a straight passive cover 2 or cover 3 where these midgets get away and kill our DB's because they have gotten away from the DLine's containment and have all day to throw.
Two things stand out to me. The 3T lined up in a gap at a 45-degree angle and Saleh, being asked to evolve (adopt a W9). I can't find a single video out there but Bryant Young was a master of this. Just before the snap, he'd slide over to a gap, turn sideways, 45-degrees and blow through the gap and just wreck everything in the backfield. That's how I thought Saleh would use Solomon Thomas. As it turned out, he wanted to go even bigger than Buckner but still have the athleticism and quickness to shoot gaps like BY. Kinlaw should be able to play to his own strength here right out of the gap. Shoot first, think later.
Next, Kyle, like you saw with our run game, loves evolving. Adding Kocurek and his W9 and Woods 2 deep S and coverages really helped build off Saleh's own Kiffin/Seifert/Carroll and his big-personnel philosophy from Jacksonville.
In short, the foundation remains the same and it's sound like Kyle likes BUT it's evolving in both personnel and schemes. So I'm certainly looking forward to seeing if it evolves even further this year.
More Ford on first downs (29 teams pass more than run on first downs), more dime, more man, more 2 deep S's, more split coverages, etc?
Anyone have a guess what we might see?
I'm a big fan of the zone blitz, specially if you have linebackers from all over the place blitzing from unexpected places. You don't zone blitz guys like Aaron, Tom Brady, or Brees often, because these are the guys who eat those kinds of zone blitzes up because they've faced them a million times both in practice and in games, but guys that are newbie rookies or 2nd years that are struggling, you can zone blitz them. Why the zone blitz? Greenlaw, Warner, and Kwon are *fast* and can get there - and if the protections are shifted to one side or the other, it can create a lot of mistakes on the rookie or 2nd year QB. Even Aaron had trouble against our zone blitz in the playoffs last year. 2nd reason, the two division rival midgets. I hate them eating up our zones and just keeping the plays alive and living to throw another day, or scoring on us on a deep pass where he had a ton of time running around back there like a chicken that can't be caught. I think the zone blitz, you have to guess where he's going, but if you guess right, it's a possible 7+ yard loss, or at least gives your defenders time to man up while the two midgets are scrambling trying to get away vs setting up and throwing against our straight zones. I think if Ford, Kinlaw, DJ Jones, Armstead and
Bosa are healthy, the QB already is limited in his time in the pocket. Add in the zone blitz and you force these Midgets who like to run, to *run* instead of pass.
Also, the zone blitz drops odd DLinemen men into coverage, so there is the chance that the midgets misread the coverage and throw it into our dropping DLinemen. A guy like Kinlaw can cover a TE in his area for a brief period in his drop zone. A guy like Bosa/Ford can cover a RB on a flair out for a brief period. I just like that aggressive defense better than a straight passive cover 2 or cover 3 where these midgets get away and kill our DB's because they have gotten away from the DLine's containment and have all day to throw.
