Week 4 SEA Seahawks coaches Film Analysis

Originally posted by 49ers808:
No idea why we have him doing this and Pistol crap. I thought one of the reasons we drafted him was because of his experience with being under center and the play action abilities off of it. Looks like we making him do something new when there is no need to

With a QB that is a threat to run, and versus a defense that is zone heavy (SEA), RPOs are a good and safe way to get yards, especially with RAC monsters in Deebo/Aiyuk.
In college, Lance played from shotgun/pistol and from under center. But when under center, it was mainly with playaction. So while he was under center in college, he wasn't taking many traditional dropbacks from under center - it was lots of playaction then hit deep shots (plays where the QB turns his back to the defense.

This is the video what I watched to make the observations above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAepPL5-www&t=650s

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 49ers808:
No idea why we have him doing this and Pistol crap. I thought one of the reasons we drafted him was because of his experience with being under center and the play action abilities off of it. Looks like we making him do something new when there is no need to

With a QB that is a threat to run, and versus a defense that is zone heavy (SEA), RPOs are a good and safe way to get yards, especially with RAC monsters in Deebo/Aiyuk.
In college, Lance played from shotgun/pistol and from under center. But when under center, it was mainly with playaction. So while he was under center in college, he wasn't taking many traditional dropbacks from under center - it was lots of playaction then hit deep shots (plays where the QB turns his back to the defense.

This is the video what I watched to make the observations above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAepPL5-www&t=650s

This video has all of his passes and runs, might be able to find more RPO stuff...

This is about how teams are defending the 49ers outside zone run game using a 5 man front, but with a slight variation from a typical 3-4 front. Teams are putting DTs inside of the OTs while putting their outside LBs outside of the tackle box. This is the first snap from the GB game.

The 49ers like to bring their WRs in close with reduced splits to help the run game. By bringing in the WRs, the 49ers are saying "the edge is not the OT or inline TE, the edge is the WR that is in the reduced split". Defenses are countering this by placing OLBs head up on the WRs.
Notice #91, he's not aligned outside of the TE, he's aligned head up on the WR. Now that WR can't crackback on him to seal the edge.

Not all situations are what I described above, but it's similar enough to see a trend. The two red OLBs are way outside of the tackle box. The three DTs are either head up or inside of the OTs. Those two OLBs are dead set on not being pinned to the inside. (first run play vs GB)


49ers try outside zone and GB is able to string out the run. Forget that Mack got blown up, watch the OLB #91. When #91 sees Juice motion presnap, #91 gets even wider in his alignment. He's not allowing any blocker to outflank him.

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This is the second run in the GB game. This is a better illustration of what was mentioned above. Three DTs inside of the OTs, two OLBs way outside. 49ers will run outside zone using Deebo to try and capture the edge with speed.


The play is again strung out to the sideline. This is better example of why defenses want to clog the middle with three DTs. It keeps the LBs clean and able to flow to the ball while the OLB to the playside has an alignment that prevents the edge from being sealed. Looking at this from the all22 view, you can see where the weakness is in the D front. I'll break up this post up to show how the 49ers are trying to counterpunch this.

Originally posted by thl408:
This is about how teams are defending the 49ers outside zone run game using a 5 man front, but with a slight variation from a typical 3-4 front. Teams are putting DTs inside of the OTs while putting their outside LBs outside of the tackle box. This is the first snap from the GB game.

The 49ers like to bring their WRs in close with reduced splits to help the run game. By bringing in the WRs, the 49ers are saying "the edge is not the OT or inline TE, the edge is the WR that is in the reduced split". Defenses are countering this by placing OLBs head up on the WRs.
Notice #91, he's not aligned outside of the TE, he's aligned head up on the WR. Now that WR can't crackback on him to seal the edge.

Not all situations are what I described above, but it's similar enough to see a trend. The two red OLBs are way outside of the tackle box. The three DTs are either head up or inside of the OTs. Those two OLBs are dead set on not being pinned to the inside. (first run play vs GB)


49ers try outside zone and GB is able to string out the run. Forget that Mack got blown up, watch the OLB #91. When #91 sees Juice motion presnap, #91 gets even wider in his alignment. He's not allowing any blocker to outflank him.

------------------
This is the second run in the GB game. This is a better illustration of what was mentioned above. Three DTs inside of the OTs, two OLBs way outside. 49ers will run outside zone using Deebo to try and capture the edge with speed.


The play is again strung out to the sideline. This is better example of why defenses want to clog the middle with three DTs. It keeps the LBs clean and able to flow to the ball while the OLB to the playside has an alignment that prevents the edge from being sealed. Looking at this from the all22 view, you can see where the weakness is in the D front. I'll break up this post up to show how the 49ers are trying to counterpunch this.

Excellent post. What do you use to create your gifs?

Originally posted by thl408:
This is about how teams are defending the 49ers outside zone run game using a 5 man front, but with a slight variation from a typical 3-4 front. Teams are putting DTs inside of the OTs while putting their outside LBs outside of the tackle box. This is the first snap from the GB game.

The 49ers like to bring their WRs in close with reduced splits to help the run game. By bringing in the WRs, the 49ers are saying "the edge is not the OT or inline TE, the edge is the WR that is in the reduced split". Defenses are countering this by placing OLBs head up on the WRs.
Notice #91, he's not aligned outside of the TE, he's aligned head up on the WR. Now that WR can't crackback on him to seal the edge.

Not all situations are what I described above, but it's similar enough to see a trend. The two red OLBs are way outside of the tackle box. The three DTs are either head up or inside of the OTs. Those two OLBs are dead set on not being pinned to the inside. (first run play vs GB)


49ers try outside zone and GB is able to string out the run. Forget that Mack got blown up, watch the OLB #91. When #91 sees Juice motion presnap, #91 gets even wider in his alignment. He's not allowing any blocker to outflank him.

------------------
This is the second run in the GB game. This is a better illustration of what was mentioned above. Three DTs inside of the OTs, two OLBs way outside. 49ers will run outside zone using Deebo to try and capture the edge with speed.


The play is again strung out to the sideline. This is better example of why defenses want to clog the middle with three DTs. It keeps the LBs clean and able to flow to the ball while the OLB to the playside has an alignment that prevents the edge from being sealed. Looking at this from the all22 view, you can see where the weakness is in the D front. I'll break up this post up to show how the 49ers are trying to counterpunch this.

I've been waiting for this post. I saw some sexy counter runs to start the game vs Seattle.

A five man defensive front is wider to defend the edges but that means the second layer of run defense, the LBs, are thinner. Th 49ers will combat this 5 man front by essentially adding gaps to the playside. This is done by pulling OGs, TEs, FBs to help bust through the thin second layer of defense. When an offense pulls a linemen to the playside, they are basically adding gaps since a blocker is a gap. A fullback is a moving gap that can be used wherever, which is why Kyle likes a fullback to make his run game go.

This is the first run play vs SEA.


This is a Power play with Juice kicking out and Brunskill lead blocking through the hole. +5.

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This is the 49ers second rushing play from the SEA game. Familiar 5 man front.


This looks like a split zone run (inside zone concept) but the 49ers bring two blockers to the playside with a counter step from Sermon to help sell that the play is going left when it is actually going to the right. The key block is Juice with Kittle leading.

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This is the 15 yard run, longest from scrimmage in this game.


Another split zone (inside zone) play. With Lance being a run threat, Juice can disregard the edge defender and allow Lance to "block" him.
With defenses using 5 man fronts to contain the edges, the 49ers are adjusting by being more of a straight ahead running team using gap blocking runs and inside zone. Pulling guards, adding a FB/TE to the point of attack to punish the thin second level of defenders.

Originally posted by thl408:

Question for anyone that watched Lance's college tape, did he run many RPOs in college? I'm not talking about zone read runs, but actual RPOs where he has the option to throw if that's what the presnap read determined.
Check the play @ 10:42 of this clip. I don't see many plays like this called for him in college so it makes me think he's just inexperienced making these reads:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAepPL5-www

I saw one play vs SEA where he handed the ball off to Sermon, but Deebo had the numbers for a quick throw to the flat for a WR screen - it would gone for good yardage. Just wondering if he has experience with RPOs and just misread the play, or if this is a rather new concept for him. With him being a run threat, RPOs can be very effective versus zone coverages for some easy yards.

I saw Lance upset with himself after this play and probably for this exact reason. He knew it should've went the other way.

This goes back to what we were talking about last week in the Demeco Ryans thread bout how defenses are adjusting to this outside zone scheme that is spreading around the league - Kyle, McVay, Packers, Titans, Vikings, and more - all run a variation of this outside zone run game. Defense adjust, now offenses have to adjust.

https://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/194698-defensive-coordinator-demeco-ryans/page69/#post1023

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I saw Lance upset with himself after this play and probably for this exact reason. He knew it should've went the other way.

You can see Deebo recognize the slot CB blitz and want the ball - because that is the correct read, throw the WR screen. Apparently RPOs isn't something Lance has college experience with so it'll come.
edit: that was actually Adams the safety blitzing off the slot. Point is, there is a numbers advantage for the WR screen.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by frenchmov:
By not how it works I mean it's not set in stone forever if he has mechanic issues and plays as a rookie. There are many examples to the contrary.

Not set in stone but its far more the rule than the exception when it comes to a QB's throwing motion and footwork. Each snap that you take just reinforces any existing issues that may be there. If you look at a guy like Steve Young, he absolutely had to work like a mother with Bill Walsh, Mike Holmgren and Mike Shanahan for years, three HOF level coaches, during a time when coaches were given far more hands on time with players than they are nowadays.

Well not necessarily and alot more context is needed for this stuff,...because quite honestly, for a # of players it's a learning experience where these things don't become habitual and instead, are obsessed over until the player improves it.

An example of context where this possibility is more of a concern, though, is in situations where maybe the coach is under some heat to win and you as a young player are, in turn, under the same fire. Maybe your defense stinks too, so everything takes on a "just win" or "just get by" climate and some really bad things about the way you play can get reinforced.

Shanahan is safe so that box doesn't check,...and hopefully, the same for the defense. With the capital we gave away for him, Shanny has pretty much made it clear that he's going to be a stickler about stuff like this and not allow play where he's off-script for much of the game.

Given all of that, it's nothing to be worried about for Lance should he need to sub for a game here/there, or in spot duty. That time will be beneficial to him more than anything else.

At the same time, Jimmy being healthy when that happens means Trey gets more time to study up without being pressured to win NOW.

Thanks for posting those Thl, we saw a lot more bear fronts the past 2 weeks to make the guards amd center beat you in 1v1's. We went to a lot more power-man this past game. Could be the bear fronts, could be to give Sermin more defined aiming points and less on his shoulders to read and react.

The NFL Ying's and yangs and the wide zone has been around a long time. The biggest disappointment this year is the run game. I don't care who the qb is, we can't keep putting the team in so many 2nd and 3rd andongs. Seattle went 5 straight 3 and outs when it happened to them. You just can't expect qb's to overcome that and have consistent success.

Great breakdown gents. Sure is frustrating to see so many open receivers though.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Thanks for posting those Thl, we saw a lot more bear fronts the past 2 weeks to make the guards amd center beat you in 1v1's. We went to a lot more power-man this past game. Could be the bear fronts, could be to give Sermin more defined aiming points and less on his shoulders to read and react.

The NFL Ying's and yangs and the wide zone has been around a long time. The biggest disappointment this year is the run game. I don't care who the qb is, we can't keep putting the team in so many 2nd and 3rd andongs. Seattle went 5 straight 3 and outs when it happened to them. You just can't expect qb's to overcome that and have consistent success.

I hadn't thought of the bolded but it makes sense. I think Sermon was mostly inside zone in college so that's his comfort area. One thing is for sure, defenses are adjusting as more offenses adopt this outside zone scheme. I want to say Kyle saw this coming and that's why he drafted a Guard with size - powerful straight ahead blocking.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

I saw Lance upset with himself after this play and probably for this exact reason. He knew it should've went the other way.

You can see Deebo recognize the slot CB blitz and want the ball - because that is the correct read, throw the WR screen. Apparently RPOs isn't something Lance has college experience with so it'll come.
edit: that was actually Adams the safety blitzing off the slot. Point is, there is a numbers advantage for the WR screen.

Yes, if Deebo gets it an breaks a tackle, that's a touchdown.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by davide49:
Great stuff JD!

Curious, why does no one talk about how wobbly his throws have been? Something has to be up with his mechanics.

He has small hands. You know what they say about QBs with small hands.

Not small but below average,...and this is a subject I was worried about actually.

As I saw in the last game though, Trey has no problem at all palming the ball when running around and must make up for it with amazing grip strength (this was my only concern).