Why Have our Last Two Promising QB Prospects Flamed Out?

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think they mean flaming out as 49ers.

Jimmy is getting traded or released. If he was a legitimate franchise QB, he'd be getting extended. That's a fact. But he's not a legitimate franchise QB, and he never will be. He's among the Ryan Tannehills of the world: QBs who will always have starting jobs because legitimate franchise QBs are very hard to find. The only reason he got that contract in the first place is because it was reasonable to project that he would become a real franchise QB. And the reason he's getting traded or released is because he failed to meet those expectations.

And there you have it...

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Kap - Was due to Baalke drafting and Jed keeping Baalke over Harbaugh.

Jimmy G - Was never developed. He's 30 making the same mistakes over and over again. Not sure if he has the skill set but he needs to be paired with a Andy Ried type coach (QB guru).

Yeah, there's issues of mechanics and reading ability. I think Jimmy's still growing and can grow even more, but between Trey and Jimmy, Trey looks really good right now. I think Kyle saw some deficiencies in Jimmy's game that Trey overcomes, even now while he's still raw. I think eventually Jimmy will reach all pro level, but I think with Kyle, Trey will get there possibly sooner. I think Kyle is a pretty good judge of QB's and for him to spend 3 first round picks Kyle must see something special in Trey.

What makes Kyle a good judge of QB's? He has never developed a QB.

His dad never developed a QB either (Steve Young & John Elway?).

Kyle wanted Kirk Cousins and drafted Beathard in the 3rd round instead of Mahomes or Watson in the first.

The QB developer in the NFL is Andy Reid.

With Kap we almost stole a Super Bowl before the league figured him out the next year. Jimmy G couldn't stay on the field. Could we win a SB with JG, yes but not by himself. I am not sold on Lance, hope I'm wrong.

Originally posted by RishikeshA:
With Kap we almost stole a Super Bowl before the league figured him out the next year. Jimmy G couldn't stay on the field. Could we win a SB with JG, yes but not by himself. I am not sold on Lance, hope I'm wrong.

No QB in the history of the NFL won a SB "by himself"

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Great QBs aren't made. They're found. Yes, QBs can improve, but what you're improving is their tendencies, their decision making. You're not improving their ability, and field vision is generally an ability, not a learned skill. Reading a defense is a learned skill. Seeing defenders out of the corner of your vision focus is not. That's something you either have or you don't.

Jimmy doesn't have it, and that's why he is making the same mistakes. He could improve his accuracy, but he hasn't, and that is on him and no one else.

I agree there are varying levels of innate abilities, however, to say that those abilities cannot be improved is wrong. Things like peripheral vision can be trained.

My take is that Kyle Shanahan is a great play designer but not a great QB tutor. His ability to scheme receivers open makes a QB look better than he is. He does not appear to have that laser focus Walsh had on details. Reading his books he details certain drills designer to teach the QB how to read the defense. If we look back at the history of Walsh's QB, he was able to bring in some lower-level guys and get good service from them. Kyle got nothing from Mullen and Beathard. They never seemed to make any progress at all.

Scangarello was nothing special either. I'm glad he is gone.

I will say again, put Garoppolo in a pass-first offense, not a run-first offense and you will see an improved Jimmy Garoppolo. I'll leave it there.

Not really. Great vision is something that all the great players have, whether it's football (QB), basketball, hockey, it's something you have or you don't. You cannot teach another player to see the game as good as Lebron for example. After 8 seasons in the NFL Jimmy is who he is.

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Kap - Was due to Baalke drafting and Jed keeping Baalke over Harbaugh.

Jimmy G - Was never developed. He's 30 making the same mistakes over and over again. Not sure if he has the skill set but he needs to be paired with a Andy Ried type coach (QB guru).

Yeah, there's issues of mechanics and reading ability. I think Jimmy's still growing and can grow even more, but between Trey and Jimmy, Trey looks really good right now. I think Kyle saw some deficiencies in Jimmy's game that Trey overcomes, even now while he's still raw. I think eventually Jimmy will reach all pro level, but I think with Kyle, Trey will get there possibly sooner. I think Kyle is a pretty good judge of QB's and for him to spend 3 first round picks Kyle must see something special in Trey.

What makes Kyle a good judge of QB's? He has never developed a QB.

His dad never developed a QB either (Steve Young & John Elway?).

Kyle wanted Kirk Cousins and drafted Beathard in the 3rd round instead of Mahomes or Watson in the first.

The QB developer in the NFL is Andy Reid.

Fat Andy had McNabb for a very long time, (add in another couple of years with Alex Smith) before he had Mahomes. I don't think Andy had to trade up to get Mahomes, the way Kyle got Trey. But with Kyle, he made a bold move to get *his* Mahomes 2.0 in 2021 - 5 years into his HC tenure, vs Fat Andy.

As for QB development, both BeatHard and Mullens (as far as I know) are still in the NFL. Usually most NFL players are out of the league at this stage in their careers. Add in his many years of having QBs that, once he's gone as OC, they become mere mortals. That says to me he either develops them or makes them look pretty good as a OC/play-designer. We shall see with Trey. From what I've seen of the Texas game, he's on his way.

Originally posted by reasonable1:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think they mean flaming out as 49ers.

Jimmy is getting traded or released. If he was a legitimate franchise QB, he'd be getting extended. That's a fact. But he's not a legitimate franchise QB, and he never will be. He's among the Ryan Tannehills of the world: QBs who will always have starting jobs because legitimate franchise QBs are very hard to find. The only reason he got that contract in the first place is because it was reasonable to project that he would become a real franchise QB. And the reason he's getting traded or released is because he failed to meet those expectations.

And there you have it...

lol Jimmy G will not be getting released. Even Tannehill was traded.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Kap - Was due to Baalke drafting and Jed keeping Baalke over Harbaugh.

Jimmy G - Was never developed. He's 30 making the same mistakes over and over again. Not sure if he has the skill set but he needs to be paired with a Andy Ried type coach (QB guru).

Yeah, there's issues of mechanics and reading ability. I think Jimmy's still growing and can grow even more, but between Trey and Jimmy, Trey looks really good right now. I think Kyle saw some deficiencies in Jimmy's game that Trey overcomes, even now while he's still raw. I think eventually Jimmy will reach all pro level, but I think with Kyle, Trey will get there possibly sooner. I think Kyle is a pretty good judge of QB's and for him to spend 3 first round picks Kyle must see something special in Trey.

What makes Kyle a good judge of QB's? He has never developed a QB.

His dad never developed a QB either (Steve Young & John Elway?).

Kyle wanted Kirk Cousins and drafted Beathard in the 3rd round instead of Mahomes or Watson in the first.

The QB developer in the NFL is Andy Reid.

Fat Andy had McNabb for a very long time, (add in another couple of years with Alex Smith) before he had Mahomes. I don't think Andy had to trade up to get Mahomes, the way Kyle got Trey. But with Kyle, he made a bold move to get *his* Mahomes 2.0 in 2021 - 5 years into his HC tenure, vs Fat Andy.

As for QB development, both BeatHard and Mullens (as far as I know) are still in the NFL. Usually most NFL players are out of the league at this stage in their careers. Add in his many years of having QBs that, once he's gone as OC, they become mere mortals. That says to me he either develops them or makes them look pretty good as a OC/play-designer. We shall see with Trey. From what I've seen of the Texas game, he's on his way.

Teams flame out because Kyle is a good O.C.

BB is a great coach but he is on the defensive side of the ball so he doesn't develop QB's either but he brought in coaches that could develop a QB and they developed a QB that is arguably the best QB to ever play the game (Tom Brady).

It is my opinion that QB's are drafted #1 in the NFL because most NFL coaches cannot develop a QB. The NFL is not a development league meaning they prefer players that are pro ready unlike the MLB that has a development system after college.

If anything Kyle is a RB guru, but we all know that BobbyTurner is the coach behind the running back development (Bobby Turner has only coached with the Shanahan's since coming to the NFL). With that said, Kyle needs to find an elite QB coach/guru, basically the Bobby Turner of QB coaching and stick to play designing.

This is why I admire Bill Walsh so much, he had it all!

3 QB'S.

Alexcuses Smith = limited talent. Tried his hardest.

KRAPerPICK = head case and 1 read wonder.

Jimmy G = not as bad as the media or WZ claims. But not great either. Somewhat successful.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
3 QB'S.

Alexcuses Smith = limited talent. Tried his hardest.

KRAPerPICK = head case and 1 read wonder.

Jimmy G = not as bad as the media or WZ claims. But not great either. Somewhat successful.

Alex had the talent. He just mentally played conservative. Which i cant blame him after what Nolan put him through and it did work for him since he would of won well over 100 games if not for that career ending injury.

Why did the last few QBs flame out?

Because you(we) got sucked into the media hype and wanted to believe so bad they were the answer with such a small sample size. They both got figured out and couldn't adjust.

Kap was physically gifted but challenged in reading a D and not a great leader. Harbs gave him that. When Harbs left so did Kaps.

Jimmy G a nice guy that can throw in the middle of the field, but not good deep or to the outside. Brittle and panics in big time situations.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

3 QB'S.

Alexcuses Smith = limited talent. Tried his hardest.

KRAPerPICK = head case and 1 read wonder.

Jimmy G = not as bad as the media or WZ claims. But not great either. Somewhat successful.

All sucked.

Originally posted by NDSU:
Hes been with Brynn Chandler for quite a while now. Stable, not looking to get married.
Her dad is Chris Chandler (NFL QB 17 years, took ATL to the Super Bowl and lost to John Elway's Denver squad)

Iirc Chandler was married to John Brodie's daughter.. talk about full circle

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Great QBs aren't made. They're found. Yes, QBs can improve, but what you're improving is their tendencies, their decision making. You're not improving their ability, and field vision is generally an ability, not a learned skill. Reading a defense is a learned skill. Seeing defenders out of the corner of your vision focus is not. That's something you either have or you don't.

Jimmy doesn't have it, and that's why he is making the same mistakes. He could improve his accuracy, but he hasn't, and that is on him and no one else.

I agree there are varying levels of innate abilities, however, to say that those abilities cannot be improved is wrong. Things like peripheral vision can be trained.

Rarely. This is more of an instinctual thing, not a "do this, don't do this" kind of thing.

My take is that Kyle Shanahan is a great play designer but not a great QB tutor. His ability to scheme receivers open makes a QB look better than he is. He does not appear to have that laser focus Walsh had on details. Reading his books he details certain drills designer to teach the QB how to read the defense. If we look back at the history of Walsh's QB, he was able to bring in some lower-level guys and get good service from them. Kyle got nothing from Mullen and Beathard. They never seemed to make any progress at all.

This is a Grant Cohn take, if you didn't know.

Scangarello was nothing special either. I'm glad he is gone.

I will say again, put Garoppolo in a pass-first offense, not a run-first offense and you will see an improved Jimmy Garoppolo. I'll leave it there.

I will say again, you'll see a lot more interceptions if you do that.

Originally posted by Jcool:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Jcool:
How did Jimmy "flame out"? His last two healthy seasons he took the 49ers to the Superbowl and NFC title game. Just because he isn't a top 5 QB doesn't mean he wasn't a good QB for the 49ers and wont help the next team he goes to be better. Flame outs are QBs like Josh Rosen, who were taken top 10 and can barely stay on an NFL roster.

I think they mean flaming out as 49ers.

Jimmy is getting traded or released. If he was a legitimate franchise QB, he'd be getting extended. That's a fact. But he's not a legitimate franchise QB, and he never will be. He's among the Ryan Tannehills of the world: QBs who will always have starting jobs because legitimate franchise QBs are very hard to find. The only reason he got that contract in the first place is because it was reasonable to project that he would become a real franchise QB. And the reason he's getting traded or released is because he failed to meet those expectations.

That is still not flaming out.

What does that phrase even mean in this context?