Why Have our Last Two Promising QB Prospects Flamed Out?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Still trying to figure out why Jim Druckenmiller flamed out

That was such a bad pick. Jake Plummer was the obvious choice, he was the Walsh backed choice and the team instead wanted the massive, lumbering pocket passer that had a cannon arm but struggled to hit the broadside of the barn with his passes.

They screwed up that draft so badly. They ended up with Druckenmiller, Marc Edwards and Greg Clark. They could have easily walked out wit:

Jake Plummer, Sam Madison or Corey Dillon

Jason Taylor or Ronde Barber.

Mike Vrabel or Derrick Mason.

The best QB's out of the draft class ended up being Plummer and undrafted Jake Delhomme.

He was like a Ben Roethlisberger minus the talent.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:
Kap was a hard worker in the wrong area for a QB - the weight room. On the field, I thought the team did him no favors giving him a bunch of slow WRs. There was that one year the WRs were Boldin, Crabtree, and Stevie Johnson, all good WRs, but all with similar skillsets as possession WRs. Kap needed speed outside of Vernon Davis, and when the team got Torrey Smith, they forgot how to pass protect so that didn't work.

Jimmy has his own thread where we've already discussed it all.

It would be an interesting thought experiment to theorize what Kaepernick would have done with Kittle, Aiyuk, Deebo, Mitchell, Jauan, as a QB passer. My thought is that Kaepernick would still have some defensive reading problems, but would be much more productive than he would have been in the 2012 season. In other words, he'd have improved from that year if he had the receivers that currently Trey has.

The entire coaching staff and roster deteriorated around Kap, so while he stepped into a good situation it turned sour in a hurry. Tomsula hired some Steve Carell look-alike radio host to be Kap's QB coach, remember that (Steve Logan)? Kap could have developed better - both his fault and of those around him (coaches).

For different reasons neither of them had what it takes.

Kaepernick was unable to adjust. He needed time mentally. In games where we were ahead and the game plan was winning from the start he dominated, but if there was an adjustment needed at halftime he couldn't. Look at his last season with us. If im not mistaken he had close to 80% completion percentage in the 1st half of games and then like 23% in the 2nd half. The NFL caught up to Kaep which imo is 100% the reason for the social justice stuff, he knew he couldn't play in the NFL which is evidenced by either him or his woman nuking every opportunity he had of getting back into the NFL after he left the 49ers. I also think Kap came in with the wrong HC. He took on Harbaughs attitude toward the press which did him no favors.

GQ came in and didn't have to worry about playing the offense and Kyle was calling basic plays for him. He literally had 0 pressure and was gun-slinging it. Then he had to learn the offense and the pressure of expectation of performing within that offense. Jimmy simply doesn't have the ability to regularly deliver and imo is because his lower body mechanics blow. I saw 0 improvements in his lower body mechanics in his time with us and as he ages his accuracy will become more of an issue imo.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:
Kap was a hard worker in the wrong area for a QB - the weight room. On the field, I thought the team did him no favors giving him a bunch of slow WRs. There was that one year the WRs were Boldin, Crabtree, and Stevie Johnson, all good WRs, but all with similar skillsets as possession WRs. Kap needed speed outside of Vernon Davis, and when the team got Torrey Smith, they forgot how to pass protect so that didn't work.

Jimmy has his own thread where we've already discussed it all.

It would be an interesting thought experiment to theorize what Kaepernick would have done with Kittle, Aiyuk, Deebo, Mitchell, Jauan, as a QB passer. My thought is that Kaepernick would still have some defensive reading problems, but would be much more productive than he would have been in the 2012 season. In other words, he'd have improved from that year if he had the receivers that currently Trey has.

The entire coaching staff and roster deteriorated around Kap, so while he stepped into a good situation it turned sour in a hurry. Tomsula hired some Steve Carell look-alike radio host to be Kap's QB coach, remember that (Steve Logan)? Kap could have developed better - both his fault and of those around him (coaches).

Glad to see someone gets it. The old narrative that teams stopped the read option so Kap couldn't produce was/is still one of the laziest takes in 49ers history. Along with the belief that Aldon Smith couldn't rush the passer without Justin Smith. Like it had nothing to do with his torn labrum.

I didn't care for Kaep in terms of his personality and worth ethic (politics aside). But give me Kap any day over Smith and Jimmy g in the playoffs. Always thought that he was overrated at first then severely underrated due to the horrific team we surrounded him with post NFC championship. He surely read defenses the worst out of those 3 players… but that doesn't mean he was the worst player.

Originally posted by dj43:
Quarterbacks do not operate in a vacuum. They don't just become great on their own. They need a FO that puts a balanced and reasonable amount of talent around them. Without that, opponents figure them out and shut them down. Thl noted that with Kaepernick.

They also need coaches that put them in systems that allow them to grow. Harbaugh was certainly deficient in that regard. His Bo Schembechler offense did little to encourage CK to work on his mechanics - to put touch on the ball, and all the rest.

If you want a quarterback to become a good passer, you must put him in a system that stresses passing and coach him up for it. You can't leave him in a run-first offense and expect him to make great throws on the relatively few occasions when such things are needed. We saw how that worked out with Kaepernick. I've expressed my opinion on that matter in the Garoppolo thread on the same topic.

Let's hope Kyle stresses passing with Trey Lance, and not just use him as another running option.

Personally, I think if a QB is a good passer, he'll be a good passer - whether it's a run first team or a pass first team. In other words, look at the Pittsburg Steelers under Franco and Bleier. They were a run first team, but because Bradshaw could pass, they won 4 super bowls. Now today's game is very pass oriented, and so having a run first offense is kind of negating an advantage the rules naturally give you. Having said that - Jimmy was a good passer, but not nearly as good as what Kyle wanted from the QB position, hence Trey. Once the passing game got untracked - with Aiyuk and Jauan coming online, and Jimmy finally staying relatively healthy - the 49ers went on a 7-2 run after the Rams game. If you look at Joe's playoff career won/loss record (69% overall career playoffs), Terry Bradshaw (73% overall career playoffs) both won four super bowls, both are well above 65% in win/loss percentage and both had diametrically *different* offenses - one was run first and one was pass first.

Jimmy: got injured and could not run as well. Also could not play off instinct and shanahan offense was too complex for him. He looked great his first 5 games when he did not know the playbook and played off instead instinct Russell Wilson ball.

Mullens: seemed to have it when things went well but would get rattled and the wheels would come off. Mentally weak even though he had great preparation. Soon as things went bad he forgot all his fundamental s started starring down receivers etc.

Beathard: slow to read defenses with a long windup motion led to him getting hammered and sacked a ton. Took way too long to get rid of the ball. Not athletic could not move in the pocket.

Kap: long motion. Not especially quick. He was fast but not quick which led him to have trouble escaping the pocket. Like beathard but better legs he took a long time to read defenses and let go of the ball. Telegraphed a lot of throws with his long motion. He was fine on the he read option because he started running as soon as the ball snapped making up for his lack of quickness. Harbaugh got less creative as the years went on.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:
Kap was a hard worker in the wrong area for a QB - the weight room. On the field, I thought the team did him no favors giving him a bunch of slow WRs. There was that one year the WRs were Boldin, Crabtree, and Stevie Johnson, all good WRs, but all with similar skillsets as possession WRs. Kap needed speed outside of Vernon Davis, and when the team got Torrey Smith, they forgot how to pass protect so that didn't work.

Jimmy has his own thread where we've already discussed it all.

It would be an interesting thought experiment to theorize what Kaepernick would have done with Kittle, Aiyuk, Deebo, Mitchell, Jauan, as a QB passer. My thought is that Kaepernick would still have some defensive reading problems, but would be much more productive than he would have been in the 2012 season. In other words, he'd have improved from that year if he had the receivers that currently Trey has.

The entire coaching staff and roster deteriorated around Kap, so while he stepped into a good situation it turned sour in a hurry. Tomsula hired some Steve Carell look-alike radio host to be Kap's QB coach, remember that (Steve Logan)? Kap could have developed better - both his fault and of those around him (coaches).

When you get to Tomsula those years (year) didn't work out cuz guys forgot to pick up their trash. We didn't think big in small ways. Plus Jimmy T was so protective of his scheme he refused to share it with anyone, players included. You can never be too careful.

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by thl408:
Kap was a hard worker in the wrong area for a QB - the weight room. On the field, I thought the team did him no favors giving him a bunch of slow WRs. There was that one year the WRs were Boldin, Crabtree, and Stevie Johnson, all good WRs, but all with similar skillsets as possession WRs. Kap needed speed outside of Vernon Davis, and when the team got Torrey Smith, they forgot how to pass protect so that didn't work.

Jimmy has his own thread where we've already discussed it all.

It would be an interesting thought experiment to theorize what Kaepernick would have done with Kittle, Aiyuk, Deebo, Mitchell, Jauan, as a QB passer. My thought is that Kaepernick would still have some defensive reading problems, but would be much more productive than he would have been in the 2012 season. In other words, he'd have improved from that year if he had the receivers that currently Trey has.

The entire coaching staff and roster deteriorated around Kap, so while he stepped into a good situation it turned sour in a hurry. Tomsula hired some Steve Carell look-alike radio host to be Kap's QB coach, remember that (Steve Logan)? Kap could have developed better - both his fault and of those around him (coaches).

Glad to see someone gets it. The old narrative that teams stopped the read option so Kap couldn't produce was/is still one of the laziest takes in 49ers history. Along with the belief that Aldon Smith couldn't rush the passer without Justin Smith. Like it had nothing to do with his torn labrum.

I didn't care for Kaep in terms of his personality and worth ethic (politics aside). But give me Kap any day over Smith and Jimmy g in the playoffs. Always thought that he was overrated at first then severely underrated due to the horrific team we surrounded him with post NFC championship. He surely read defenses the worst out of those 3 players… but that doesn't mean he was the worst player.

I tend to agree. Also the reading of defenses - under Kyle's system would have been easier for Kaepernick. The heavy play actions and boots would have been tailor made for Kaepernick and his rocket arm and awesome footspeed. I think Kaepernick of 2012-2013 and Jimmy 2021 would be roughly equivalent with Kaepernick being healthier and Jimmy being able to read defenses better. I think it took Mahomes beating Kyle in the Super Bowl to change Kyle's mind about mobile QB's and also playing Midget Wilson and Kyler Murray twice a year kind of also opened (I think) Kyle's eyes as to what a mobile QB can do nowadays to NFL defenses with the current pass happy rules. Trey, in a sense, is benefitting from that growth in Kyle's thinking.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Still trying to figure out why Jim Druckenmiller flamed out

Because he could pull a Buick but couldn't spell it

Kaep had limitations with his trowing motion. He was not particularly great on the short and intermediate stuff. Actually, I think the Niners get the max of Kaep.
Garoppolo, I think that obviously he never was the most mobile and he´s not a threat on the deep balls but ultimately the ACL played a part. He was much more mobile and nimble with his feets before the ACL whether he played with the Patriots and the Niners.
Also you have to remember that both weren´t big prospects either. They were second rounders for a reason. So actually I think that they outperformed considering where they have been drafted. Jimmy G more than Kaep in my mind.
As far as why did they flame, well Garoppolo´s career is not finished so it´s a little bit early to close the book on him. I think he can help a ton of teams. He´s a locker room leader, an easy player to coach. Did Kaep really want to improve? I don´t have the answer because I´m not him obviously but he didn´t seem to be a huge film guy. Again I´m not him and I ´m just making assumptions based on what I saw on the field.

Ultimately, they boths failed on the last step which is probably the hardest. But they never were ridiculous. Their niner´s team just experienced how hard it is to win a Superbowl.

I think, all in all... Defenses eventually did figure out how to defend them over time.

Kaepernick didn't read defenses as well. Plus, it really hurt him when Harbaugh/Roman left. In 2015, his head coaches were Jim Tomsula and Chip Kelly.

For Garoppolo, I think people realized that Jimmy excelled in the short passing game and the inside routes, and he wasn't as strong on throws to the sideline or deep. Thus, the keys to beating the 49ers were to (1) don't get fooled by all the shifts, (2) stop the run, (3) tackle well, (4) challenge the quick throws, and (5) try to fool Jimmy with your coverages. To the 49ers credit, we were still a pretty solid offense, but I think Jimmy's weaknesses/preferences became known to the league over time.

Both Qb's hit their ceilings, Kap was completely overrated as a player, had no touch and didn't even look like he tried to develop anything but his biceps. Jimmy was always a limited player and just didn't have the arm talent to improve his play.

Kap had a cap on his ceiling when he hit that cap Kap turned to Krap.

Kap was a terrible pro qb and had very limited throwing skills. No pro training in college spent every waking minute running the r p o at Las Vegas. Came to the pros at 24? 26? Never got any reps in the pocket.

Jimmy got banged up and ran kyles system ok. He was a stud before the knee. He took us to a super bowl and nfcc so not sure what you mean by "didnt work out".