Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by Chance:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by 49erKing:
Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by tankle104:
Arm is definitely stronger than Montana's.
No not really. They both throw extremely catchable balls on all their different types of throws though. Both elite there.
Disagree, I remember Montana's long balls had more arch to them. Early in Montana's career (Before Rice) he had long ball issues. Which are not a big deal during the early years as he had Wendell Tyler. That Aiyuk 40+ yard throw was a flatter trajectory than Montana's usual deep throws, as I recall it.
Having a lower trajectory on deep balls all the time means your arm isn't as strong, because you have to cut out the wasted motion. You think Russell Wilson has a weak arm? His deep balls are more tear drop than anyone's I've ever seen.
The second the ball leaves your hand, the only forces working on it are gravity and friction. A high arching ball travels a further net distance than a flattened one. It takes more arm to throw more distance. QBs who depend on a flat arc for deep balls probably do not have as strong an arm as those who don't.
HOWEVER, it could also merely be a preference. The QB maybe doesn't anticipate as much as the tear drop guy and has to sling it to get it there in time, or perhaps they're paranoid about the ball taking a long time to get there.
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EDIT: before I get tarred and feathered, I'm not talking about Brock. His arm is plenty strong enough to hit every throw you need to wear a gold jacket. I'm just talking theoretically. If you HAVE to have a low trajectory to throw deep, your arm isn't as strong as someone who can easily do either.
Any science behind this? I think if someone wants to throw deep, if they have the time, and it makes sense, they "naturally" conform to throwing with a higher arc/higher trajectory. I mean that's how I feel when I play catch with the guys. If you're trying to laser it while going deep I think that actually means you have a stronger arm than most.
Yeah. Pythagoras (Extended to curves; the same principle applies, you just add up the infinitesimal distances via a line integral, but it's essentially the same thing. In Euclidean geometry, a straight line is the shortest path between two points.). A high arcing ball travels more distance. As the ball is not getting any additional force as it leaves (basic physics), what you put into it upon release is all it has. So throwing with a high arc doesn't give you some boost. That's not how physics work. Draw a free body diagram. Only gravity and friction are of any consequence once it's released.
So, the high arcing ball is thrown further in actual distance traveled than the low arcing one.
Which means, if you MUST throw with a low arc to get it there, your arm is weaker. (By arm strength I mean how far you can throw the ball, but I see no reason why velocity and distance would be different as a measure of arm strength unless the QB has mechanical problems which make one of either his distance or velocity throws more inefficient.)
Yes, but gravity is the main factor here. If a QB threw the ball on the shortest path, a strait line, it would be impossible arm strength to accomplish on a 40 yard throw. Likewise a QB throwing the ball as high as a skyscraper and it traveling 40 yards in distance. The real measure is ball velocity as it leaves his hands a a tight rope tends to have greater velocity than a moon shot.
Humor me. The critical point is 45 degrees, IIRC.
Horizontal distance is 40 meters.
One QB throws the ball with an angle of 45 degrees. The other throws with a height of 75 degrees. Who has the greater velocity?
The formula for horizontal distance is:
R = [v^2 sin(2α)]/(g)
So v = sqrt [Rg/(sin[2α])]
R = 40.
α for the low arc is: 45 degrees (calculated using the same formula)
α for the high arc is: 75 degrees.
So the HORIZONTAL velocities are, respectfully: sqrt [40m *g/(sin[2*45])] = 19.8 m/s, and sqrt [40m*g/(sin[2*75])] = 39.6 m/s.
The interesting thing with sin is that it's a periodic function. That means there are times when a LOWER trajectory would take more initial velocity than a higher one, and there are times when a HIGHER trajectory would take more initial velocity. You brought up the fact that a zero trajectory would take infinite velocity. That's true. So would a 90 degree trajectory.
So, if the QB is throwing with an arc greater than 45 degrees, each additional degree of arc requires more arm strength. If the QB is throwing with an arc less than 45 degrees, each additional degree of arc REDUCTION requires more arm strength. Russell Wilson appears to throw with greater than 45 degree arc, so the higher he throws it, the more arm strength it takes.
I think that the truth of the matter here is that the biggest factor in arc is QB preference, and if there's a weakness or a strength with a QB who chooses one or the other, it has to be related to vision and anticipation, not arm strength.
It totally has a lot to do with arm strength. It takes a lot more arm strength to throw a deep out on a rope than to throw a lofted pass. All it takes is throwing a few passes to understand that. The main reason to arc a throw rather than throw a frozen rope is catchability and layering the pass through coverage. It's all about velocity vs trajectory.
Again, it depends entirely on if the angle of throw is greater than or less than 45 degrees. I feel like you didn't read or didn't understand my post.
I am just going of the hundreds of throws I have thrown in my life most when I was trying get good enough to beat the coaches kid out for the QB position in high school. For me, it was easier to get distance on a lofted ball without straining my arm. Me and a couple of buddies spent hours in the afternoons after school running routes and working on passing accurately. It was much easier to throw deep with some loft on it, much less arm fatigue than trying to zip it in. Then I got a bass guitar for my 16th birthday and football became something to watch more than something to do. I can still spin it pretty good for an old guy though.
I never made it further than geometry in math, I just wasn't into it. Music, art,literature and history were more my things in school, and even then, school was almost 35 years ago. I'll take your word on the math, I was just speaking from my experience of actually throwing the football.
Well, first of all, body mechanics are not being considered here. Only VELOCITY. Consideration of body mechanics may change the calculus here. Second, I'd willing to bet that you're not throwing the ball with greater than 45 degrees of arc on a regular basis.
Here are the physical facts that are beyond dispute:
1. 45 degrees is the optimal angle for a throw that maximizes distance if initial velocity is held constant (aka arm strength).
2. If you're throwing with an arc angle below 45 degrees, each degree lower you throw with, the more initial velocity (aka arm strength) you have to have to get to the same distance you had with a 45 degree arc.
3. If you're throwing with an arc above 45 degrees, each degree HIGHER you throw with, the more initial velocity (aka arm strength) you have to have to get the same distance you had with a 45 degree arc.
Here's the nuance: In real football, usually the speed at which the ball arrives at the target is crucial. Because of this fact, QBs tend to throw almost every pass with an arc below 45 degrees. It's only on (some) fades and the
real deep passes that you'll see tear drop throws. But even then, most QBs still throw even deep balls with an arc below 45 degrees. It's only the guys like Russell Wilson who throw deep balls with a true tear drop arc. And for THOSE guys, it takes more arm strength to throw the same distance when they throw with a higher arc.
But again, since most throws need to get there extremely fast, your experience will match reality. It's only when you're throwing with an arc higher than 45 degrees that it takes more arm strength to throw it farther. Otherwise it's reversed and is as your experience shows.
