QB Brock Purdy Thread

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Furlow:
There is no right or wrong IF the result is positive. Just imagine that Purdy threw an INT on that pass to Aiyuk; do you think Kyle would say it was the "correct" read? Hell no. Kyle was very clear if you just listen and don't have a bias - the right read (for our conservative coach) was the checkdown because it was wide open, we had the lead, it would have moved the chains, it was safe.

Kyle is a conservative minded head coach, weird that you and a few others keep trying to make it sound like he wants to air it out down the field like the 90's Oilers.

Not being Mike Martz doesn't make him conservative. He does want to push the ball down the field in the pass game. What he doesn't want to do is have his QB throw down the field into coverage. I guarantee in film study when he sees what Brock sees instead of just quickly watching from the sideline he will be happy with the decision.

Just like in 2016, if you give him a QB he can trust he will tell him to let it rip.

Kyle's offenses are routinely in the top 5 in rush attempts per game/season. Even in 2016 with the Falcons (Ryan MVP) they were 12th. He wants to run the ball and play defense. That is the definition of "conservative" in football terms. How is this even a debate?

Again, He's happy with the decision because it worked. It's not what's in his "blood" as a coach. It just isn't and never will be. Luckily for us we have the perfect complement for Kyle, a QB with a gunslinger mentality. They are a perfect pair.

Edit: In 2016, the Falcons were 26th in pass attempts. Not exactly "letting it rip" lol.

Bingo. That's as conservative as you'll get in today's passing league.

I remember so many thinking we'd become this pass centric team once we got rid of Jimmy. Haha.

Nope.

Yeah no. Matt Ryan in 2016 had exactly THREE NFL QBs attempt more deep passes than him. Just because it's run heavy doesn't mean it's conservative. The runs set up deep passes. As shown in my previous post, which is what the Falcons did in 2016, and it's what we've done this year, and did with Trey, and did more with Nick, Brian and CJ, but didn't do nearly as much with Jimmy. Due to Jimmy.

And? Nobody is saying you can't be hyper efficient (like Brock) within the lowest passing attempts in a passing league. Which by virtue is a conservative offense.

We have the fewest passing attempts because the score of our games averages out to a just under a two touchdown win. In 2017, when we were losing a lot, we had the 2nd most pass attempts.

See post #36021. Overall as an OC and HC, Kyle has a losing record. So the theory that he's blowing everyone out and that's why he runs so much is false. In 2014 the Browns were 7-9. They ranked 6th in rushing attempts and 26th in passing attempts. In 2018 the Niners were 4-12. They ranked 11th in rushing attempts and 20th in passing attempts. So despite all of that losing, he was still committed to running the ball. Yes, OF COURSE when teams are losing they are going to throw more than run. Hell that's true even when teams are winning, as most teams pass the ball more than they run (even good teams). Very few teams/coaches are as skewed towards the run as Kyle is. I'm stressing the word skewed and emphasizing RELATIVE TO the rest of the league.

Kyle wants to run the football and is as committed to it as any coach in the league. Only Harbaugh in Baltimore is even close and they have Lamar who is an elite running QB. Again, this is not a knock on Kyle.

Are you really going to bring his record as an OC into this? Thats crazy. Kyle has a career record of 66-52 including playoffs where he is 6-3.

Well I was being told by multiple posters that play calling is not dictated by offensive philosophy, only by the score of the game. So yes his record (and scores of those games) is relevant if THAT is the point. Although the argument keeps changing so it might be time for me to check out for a bit.

That's false. What was told to you was that the score has a major influence. Nevertheless, aggressiveness is about whether or not the passes are deep, not run-pass balance. The 1982 49ers led the NFL in pass attempts. The 1999 Rams were 19th. To claim that the 1982 49ers were more aggressive is so astoundingly stupid it's actually insulting.

So let's settle that one question now: which was the more aggressive offense, the 1982 49ers, who lead the NFL in pass attempts—but ran a slow, BALL CONTROL offense, or the 1999 Rams, who are considered among the most aggressive offenses in NFL history who ran an offense that constantly pushed the ball down the field when they threw?

Pretty simple question. Will he answer it?

Probably one of the worst examples I've ever seen on the zone. The Niners in the early 80's with Walsh were completely reinventing the way the game was played. Relative to other teams in 1982, they were absolutely very aggressive. To compare them to a team 17 years in the future is so astoundingly stupid it's actually insulting.

No, they weren't. The narrative EVEN THEN was "the 49ers short passes are long handoffs." The aggressive teams were the Chargers, the Dolphins, etc.

Montana was 9th in the NFL in YPA in his first season as the starter. 8th in attempts and yards. And yes, they absolutely were reinventing the game. It's well documented that Walsh and the WCO were doing things no team had ever done. Thank you for at least backing off the comparison to a team two decades later.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
And? Nobody is saying you can't be hyper efficient (like Brock) within the lowest passing attempts in a passing league. Which by virtue is a conservative offense.

So if Kyle eliminated 10 runs for screens and swing passes suddenly the offense is more aggressive?

When he's top 5 in passing attempts he will be.

That said, "conservative" may not be a fair word. Kyle is aggressively conservative within the limited passing attempts he chooses to use.

He's about balance and efficiency and calculated shots.

There's nothing wrong with that but let's not act like this is some pass centric offense esp. by today's standards.

Good post. For some reason the troops are getting triggered by the word "conservative" as if it's an insult. We'll use a different word, geezus lol.

Only in the WZ can a team be dead last in passing attempts be spun into some wide open pass centric offense.

As to what happens inside those numbers is a different topic.

The real reason this has triggered a few is because they used to argue having a different QB, we'd become pass centric. I know because we used to predict the run/pass ratios annually. It showed who quickly didn't understand who Kyle was as a HC.

Last in attempts but a lot of air yards therefore "aggressive." Lol

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by thl408:
So now the number of plays is an indicator of how aggressive an offense is? I disagree so much because so many things affect how many plays an offense runs. There is no stat that measures how aggressive an offense is.

What does the offense try to do in certain game situations - that's how you can tell if the offense is aggressive. I mentioned a couple situations above. 3rd & 12, is the QB throwing a dinky checkdown/screen, or is he asked to take a 7 step drop and throw past the sticks? The answer to that question tells us so much more about an offense as opposed to number of plays, or number of passes.

Interjecting again, as I mentioned in my last post, I think it's possible to be an aggressive play caller in how you attack a defense and still be conservative in terms of clock management.

To me there's no argument that we aren't conservative in terms of clock management. Is that indicative of any kind of problem? Not to me, unless our defense is also going to struggle getting off the field (as was argued last week).

That too. There was just a whole WZ article on how Kyle plays the clock too.

Didn't seem like I made a controversial statement saying that one aspect of Kyle's conservative nature is his slow pace of calling plays. I don't have a problem with it either.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think you can make an argument that Kyle is aggressive in clock management, but you have to think outside the box. He aggressively tries to wind the clock down, thus limiting the number of offensive plays we get, while also still trying to score. If he just ran out the clock and went to the locker room, I'd consider that conservative. Instead, he tries to both wind down the clock and score, so it's kind of aggressive in its own right, or at least one could make the argument.

Lol. Elevated thinking.

polite way of saying BS
i'll start using that from now on

I mean, it's kind of what he does. He'll start a two minute drive by running some time off the clock, and then invariably at some point have a shot play in there to get twenty, twenty-five yards. So is that aggressive or conservative? He runs out the clock, that's conservative, but he has his guy throw twenty yards down the field, and that's aggressive. So which is it?

I think we can agree he's aggressively conservative

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Furlow:
There is no right or wrong IF the result is positive. Just imagine that Purdy threw an INT on that pass to Aiyuk; do you think Kyle would say it was the "correct" read? Hell no. Kyle was very clear if you just listen and don't have a bias - the right read (for our conservative coach) was the checkdown because it was wide open, we had the lead, it would have moved the chains, it was safe.

Kyle is a conservative minded head coach, weird that you and a few others keep trying to make it sound like he wants to air it out down the field like the 90's Oilers.

Not being Mike Martz doesn't make him conservative. He does want to push the ball down the field in the pass game. What he doesn't want to do is have his QB throw down the field into coverage. I guarantee in film study when he sees what Brock sees instead of just quickly watching from the sideline he will be happy with the decision.

Just like in 2016, if you give him a QB he can trust he will tell him to let it rip.

Kyle's offenses are routinely in the top 5 in rush attempts per game/season. Even in 2016 with the Falcons (Ryan MVP) they were 12th. He wants to run the ball and play defense. That is the definition of "conservative" in football terms. How is this even a debate?

Again, He's happy with the decision because it worked. It's not what's in his "blood" as a coach. It just isn't and never will be. Luckily for us we have the perfect complement for Kyle, a QB with a gunslinger mentality. They are a perfect pair.

Edit: In 2016, the Falcons were 26th in pass attempts. Not exactly "letting it rip" lol.

Bingo. That's as conservative as you'll get in today's passing league.

I remember so many thinking we'd become this pass centric team once we got rid of Jimmy. Haha.

Nope.

Yeah no. Matt Ryan in 2016 had exactly THREE NFL QBs attempt more deep passes than him. Just because it's run heavy doesn't mean it's conservative. The runs set up deep passes. As shown in my previous post, which is what the Falcons did in 2016, and it's what we've done this year, and did with Trey, and did more with Nick, Brian and CJ, but didn't do nearly as much with Jimmy. Due to Jimmy.

And? Nobody is saying you can't be hyper efficient (like Brock) within the lowest passing attempts in a passing league. Which by virtue is a conservative offense.

We have the fewest passing attempts because the score of our games averages out to a just under a two touchdown win. In 2017, when we were losing a lot, we had the 2nd most pass attempts.

See post #36021. Overall as an OC and HC, Kyle has a losing record. So the theory that he's blowing everyone out and that's why he runs so much is false. In 2014 the Browns were 7-9. They ranked 6th in rushing attempts and 26th in passing attempts. In 2018 the Niners were 4-12. They ranked 11th in rushing attempts and 20th in passing attempts. So despite all of that losing, he was still committed to running the ball. Yes, OF COURSE when teams are losing they are going to throw more than run. Hell that's true even when teams are winning, as most teams pass the ball more than they run (even good teams). Very few teams/coaches are as skewed towards the run as Kyle is. I'm stressing the word skewed and emphasizing RELATIVE TO the rest of the league.

Kyle wants to run the football and is as committed to it as any coach in the league. Only Harbaugh in Baltimore is even close and they have Lamar who is an elite running QB. Again, this is not a knock on Kyle.

Are you really going to bring his record as an OC into this? Thats crazy. Kyle has a career record of 66-52 including playoffs where he is 6-3.

Well I was being told by multiple posters that play calling is not dictated by offensive philosophy, only by the score of the game. So yes his record (and scores of those games) is relevant if THAT is the point. Although the argument keeps changing so it might be time for me to check out for a bit.

That's false. What was told to you was that the score has a major influence. Nevertheless, aggressiveness is about whether or not the passes are deep, not run-pass balance. The 1982 49ers led the NFL in pass attempts. The 1999 Rams were 19th. To claim that the 1982 49ers were more aggressive is so astoundingly stupid it's actually insulting.

So let's settle that one question now: which was the more aggressive offense, the 1982 49ers, who lead the NFL in pass attempts—but ran a slow, BALL CONTROL offense, or the 1999 Rams, who are considered among the most aggressive offenses in NFL history who ran an offense that constantly pushed the ball down the field when they threw?

Pretty simple question. Will he answer it?

Probably one of the worst examples I've ever seen on the zone. The Niners in the early 80's with Walsh were completely reinventing the way the game was played. Relative to other teams in 1982, they were absolutely very aggressive. To compare them to a team 17 years in the future is so astoundingly stupid it's actually insulting.

No, they weren't. The narrative EVEN THEN was "the 49ers short passes are long handoffs." The aggressive teams were the Chargers, the Dolphins, etc.

Montana was 9th in the NFL in YPA in his first season as the starter. 8th in attempts and yards. And yes, they absolutely were reinventing the game. It's well documented that Walsh and the WCO were doing things no team had ever done. Thank you for at least backing off the comparison to a team two decades later.

YPA is not a measurement of passing aggression. It's a measurement of YARDS AFTER CATCH or passing aggression or a combination of both. It's impossible to know without knowing air yards, which you mock because it's been consistently inconvenient for your Jimmy love.

Reinventing the game is not the same as being aggressive. In fact, the way they reinvented the game is by utilizing SHORT passes (e.g., SAFE, CONSISTENT, LOW RISK) to replace the run game.

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
And? Nobody is saying you can't be hyper efficient (like Brock) within the lowest passing attempts in a passing league. Which by virtue is a conservative offense.

So if Kyle eliminated 10 runs for screens and swing passes suddenly the offense is more aggressive?

When he's top 5 in passing attempts he will be.

That said, "conservative" may not be a fair word. Kyle is aggressively conservative within the limited passing attempts he chooses to use.

He's about balance and efficiency and calculated shots.

There's nothing wrong with that but let's not act like this is some pass centric offense esp. by today's standards.

Good post. For some reason the troops are getting triggered by the word "conservative" as if it's an insult. We'll use a different word, geezus lol.

Only in the WZ can a team be dead last in passing attempts be spun into some wide open pass centric offense.

As to what happens inside those numbers is a different topic.

The real reason this has triggered a few is because they used to argue having a different QB, we'd become pass centric. I know because we used to predict the run/pass ratios annually. It showed who quickly didn't understand who Kyle was as a HC.

Last in attempts but a lot of air yards therefore "aggressive." Lol

That's what an aggressive pass means. It means you throw it down field, where the risk is higher. You're taking more risk. That's literally being aggressive in this context. Aggression means high risk, high reward. That's what throwing further down the field is: being aggressive.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
And? Nobody is saying you can't be hyper efficient (like Brock) within the lowest passing attempts in a passing league. Which by virtue is a conservative offense.

So if Kyle eliminated 10 runs for screens and swing passes suddenly the offense is more aggressive?

When he's top 5 in passing attempts he will be.

That said, "conservative" may not be a fair word. Kyle is aggressively conservative within the limited passing attempts he chooses to use.

He's about balance and efficiency and calculated shots.

There's nothing wrong with that but let's not act like this is some pass centric offense esp. by today's standards.

Good post. For some reason the troops are getting triggered by the word "conservative" as if it's an insult. We'll use a different word, geezus lol.

Only in the WZ can a team be dead last in passing attempts be spun into some wide open pass centric offense.

As to what happens inside those numbers is a different topic.

The real reason this has triggered a few is because they used to argue having a different QB, we'd become pass centric. I know because we used to predict the run/pass ratios annually. It showed who quickly didn't understand who Kyle was as a HC.

Only on the Webzone can someone think people are stupid enough to not notice you're replacing AGGRESSIVE with "pass-centric offense." That's LITERALLY A LOGICAL FALLACY, and flagrant attempt at deception. But it's comical, because you actually think someone here is dumb enough to fall for that.

so STOP saying "pass-centric offense" because you are simply verbally masturbating with that. No one is arguing Kyle is "pass-centric." We're arguing he's AGGRESSIVE, because literally the only time he's ran a DINK AND DUNK offense is with Jimmy.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
That's what an aggressive pass means. It means you throw it down field, where the risk is higher. You're taking more risk. That's literally being aggressive in this context. Aggression means high risk, high reward. That's what throwing further down the field is: being aggressive.

Yall are talking two different things, lol. Is there even an actual disagreement here?

Crazy to think Brock still learning Kyle's offense, and at the same time Kyle is learning the limit of Brock's abilities

An aggressive passing offense to me is a passing offense that takes shots downfield. The amount of attempts is almost irrelevant.

Brock is an aggressive QB. He challenges all areas of the field. He is literally what a lot of of us have been waiting years for.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
An aggressive passing offense to me is a passing offense that takes shots downfield. The amount of attempts is almost irrelevant.

Brock is an aggressive QB. He challenges all areas of the field. He is literally what a lot of of us have been waiting years for.

Agreed.

A coach can also be conservative or aggressive in establishing a particular facet of an offense.

Maybe if we're trying to have an actual conversation we can try not throw labels around when it doesn't check every box. Avoid pages of arguing about the label when almost everyone agrees on the actual details of the conversation (like us being aggressive within our pass game, and also us not being a pass centric offense).

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Crazy to think Brock still learning Kyle's offense, and at the same time Kyle is learning the limit of Brock's abilities

B-ROCK's not learning the offense anymore, he's just learning MORE on how to read NFL defenses baby !!!

WOOOOOOOOO !!!!

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
An aggressive passing offense to me is a passing offense that takes shots downfield. The amount of attempts is almost irrelevant.

Brock is an aggressive QB. He challenges all areas of the field. He is literally what a lot of of us have been waiting years for.

Yep

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Oh and:

Q. Reaction to Brock's touchdown pass, a little fist pump. What was your emotion watching that throw?

KYLE SHANAHAN: I couldn't believe he was throwing it. The zone coverages, guys were so deep, which usually you can check it down right underneath them, get about 12 (yards). Brock thought he could drop it over the guy. A clear view for all of us. It was just a hell of a throw. Perfect touch. Got (it) over, I think it was Diggs. It was a big play that sealed it.

Q. Guts to make that throw? What does it take?

KYLE SHANAHAN: He does that pretty consistently. He's always, always trying to get that one in. Very rarely does he check it down and you tell him he missed the deep one. He looks at it that way. Actually he proved to us while the ball was in the air it was the right decision.

Q. Did you think it was the wrong decision when he let it go?

KYLE SHANAHAN: Yeah, we're all holding our breath as soon as he lets it go. The guy was so deep. Brock has some touch, was able to throw it over him. We took the safety out of there with a route. Knew if he could get (the ball) over him, there's no one else left. He made the throw. I wouldn't have known it until he threw it. Once he threw it, it was obviously there.

tl,dr: KS thought it was the wrong decision (should've taken the check down) and knew immediately (when the ball was in the air) that he was wrong to think Purdy was wrong.

@49ATT

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Agreed.

A coach can also be conservative or aggressive in establishing a particular facet of an offense.

Maybe if we're trying to have an actual conversation we can try not throw labels around when it doesn't check every box. Avoid pages of arguing about the label when almost everyone agrees on the actual details of the conversation (like us being aggressive within our pass game, and also us not being a pass centric offense).

The disconnect comes from the idea Kyle being "conservative" hindered Jimmy and Brock is succeeding because of his own aggressive nature. The reality is Jimmy was not only unwilling to consistently make the throws Brock makes, he was also incapable of doing it consistently. If Kyle was dialing things back previously it had far more to do with Jimmys ability then his own desires. What the 9ers are doing right now is what Kyle wants to do as shown by the Matt Ryan numbers Golden showed.

No one has ever suggested this was going to become a passing offense. Only one person ever suggested they should and now he's arguing people were telling him the 9ers would turn into one.

Zero doubt in my mind Kyle is telling Brock great throw and read in the film room once he actually saw the all 22.