Will our offense be different with Lance?

Originally posted by GoldandGarnet:

Originally posted by 49ers808:
Created a thread for this so that the Danny Gray thread doesn't continue this conversation.

Someone said that there has been ZERO indication of our offense changing because Shanny built this team exactly how he wants it and I guess the presumption is we will see more of the same with Lance under center vice Jimmy. I disagree. I think the biggest trade in franchise history for Lance himself IS indication that not only does Shanny want a change but will in fact field a different offense then we've seen since his tenure. I think it will and always will be run first/dominant but with the added element of Trey for 11 on 11 football, Jimmy can't and hasn't done that. I think we will see more of the field used, in particular more deep shots and passes outside the numbers. I won't predict pass attempts as was asked in the other thread because IMO that is decided game to game and the scoreboard/defense plays a part in that; but gun to my head I actually think we won't have to pass as much (attempts) due to our run game being better and the deep shots hit or even missed to keep defenses honest. Jimmy hardly even did that. I do expect more pass interference calls then we ever had with Jimmy to go up for that alone. I don't expect all this in essentially Treys rookie season or first as a starter, but I know how it is here and Treys first year will be compared to Jimmy's entire time. Whatever; end of day I think we will see a different offense and we will see that this year granted Trey is the starter

Generally, I agree with you. But I don't think KS can/would open everything up in a season. This offense takes time to grow into. Having said that, there is a reason why this offense takes time to grow into--it evolves. I'm willing to bet that KS's O has morphed at every one of his previous stops. We may not see the full tilt of this for another couple of years.

To your point, not having the ability to take deep shots and throw outside the number is an obvious problem for us that defenses can and did key on. The best we could do about this is Jimmy's quick release and KS scheming. I think you are speaking to "constraint theory" in that the defense cannot cover everyone all the time, and deal with the run game AND deal with Lance. With Jimmy, there is less pressure on a D. With Lance, the opportunity is there (and hopefully the development and health) to challenge the defense. I think this idea is built into some of Kyle's go-to plays, like the dagger concept. If the safety knows that the deeper route is a decoy, its easy to sit on shallow routes. Just a couple of Lance's throws last year proves he can push the ball down the field and force coverages to be honest, on top of some ability to extend plays.

I don't think it is a matter of if the offense will be different or not, it is just a matter of degree. Lance's development will likely determine that, right? He still has to prove he can hit the easy stuff reliably.

Agree that the offense in 2022 won't be anywhere close to the finished product, assuming Lance continues to develop and eventually becomes a legit QB. Kyle will be particular with what he puts on Lance's plate as a first year starter for the reasons you stated about needing time to grow into the offense.

Kyle's offense conforms to the skillset of his players. It's just that this is the first time he's been a large part of the roster build since he's a head coach, and this is the first time he could hand pick a highly drafted QB. He opted to get a mobile, big armed QB that has little experience with the short passing game. This tells me that Kyle is more interested in explosives than a short ball control passing offense, if it was an either/or situation.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49ers808:
Created a thread for this so that the Danny Gray thread doesn't continue this conversation.

Someone said that there has been ZERO indication of our offense changing because Shanny built this team exactly how he wants it and I guess the presumption is we will see more of the same with Lance under center vice Jimmy. I disagree. I think the biggest trade in franchise history for Lance himself IS indication that not only does Shanny want a change but will in fact field a different offense then we've seen since his tenure. I think it will and always will be run first/dominant but with the added element of Trey for 11 on 11 football, Jimmy can't and hasn't done that. I think we will see more of the field used, in particular more deep shots and passes outside the numbers. I won't predict pass attempts as was asked in the other thread because IMO that is decided game to game and the scoreboard/defense plays a part in that; but gun to my head I actually think we won't have to pass as much (attempts) due to our run game being better and the deep shots hit or even missed to keep defenses honest. Jimmy hardly even did that. I do expect more pass interference calls then we ever had with Jimmy to go up for that alone. I don't expect all this in essentially Treys rookie season or first as a starter, but I know how it is here and Treys first year will be compared to Jimmy's entire time. Whatever; end of day I think we will see a different offense and we will see that this year granted Trey is the starter

I think eventually it will be more pass-centric offense, again depends on Trey's development. Until then - it will resemble a Bo Shembechkler offense for the most part.

Even if not "pass centric," to 808's reference of ATL, you can still be explosive within limited passing attempts. That offense only passed about 30-40 more times than we normally do but put up nearly 5K of offense and had an excellent running game too. I doubt we get to that level because I think that kind of explosive offense could wear out it's own defense over 17 games so I'd still anticipate more controlled passing and clock management for a better team balance. But yeah, if he can win primarily being run centric, why not!?! It keeps the other top QB's on the bench and our defense fresh and the big boys and Arby's happy imposing their will.

Well, I think, overall - as you said in the other thread - Kyle wants a balanced offense. A good run game helps a good passing game. So, Kyle's style of play will match the opponent and change on a weekly basis based on the kind of defenses Kyle is facing. Big difference between Jimmy and Trey is the arm and the mobility. So to the arm - I can see the offense being more vertical and more outside the hash marks. That's, I think, a no brainer. As for the mobility, that was essential in Walsh's pass first offense. He did bring in Steve Young who was much more mobile vs Joe, for example. A pass catching running back is essential in a pass first offense - it really helps that third down and short conversion. (pass to the RB vs handing it off to the RB). So Sermon's and TDP's development as receivers will be key here too. I think Sermon is already a wonderful pass catching back. He just needs to stop dancing around the hole. Now Gray's speed speaks more to a vertical offense - air Coryell for example. Keep in mind Air Coryell has a strong run component also (example: Chuck Muncie) One evolution past Air Coryell was the one back formation (us ancient fossils should remember the Hogs and John Riggens). Walsh designed the short passing offense around Virgil Carter who has a very weak arm compared to Trey, but it was highly accurate. Trey's arm is much more powerful than Virgil's, and if Trey can develop the short passing accuracy that Virgil and Joe had -- the short passing game is there for the taking.

Position-less offense. If you look at Deebo and how important he plays a role in Kyles offense currently. Imagine what he can do with a QB like Trey. He's a Wide-Back, and he can do it all. Move Deebo around, and with all the other receivers and running backs that can also catch passes, and he'll be tough to stop.

The OLine: if you look at the guards Jaylon, Banks, and Zakelj - they are big power type blockers, whereas you see the OT's and Centers being very athletic and agile and hovering around 300 Lbs, (Trent Williams is unique though) give or take a couple of pounds. You can see Kyle mixing in more inside runs versus the outside runs than before. Those runs, specifically to the left side behind Trent Williams, will help Trey's boot actions and RPOs to the right - where Trey's mobility will be dangerous. So the vertical play pass and the misdirection boot action plays just got more explosive with those potential new guards.

The WRs: you have Deebo, and Aiyuk, but the big development is Jauan. I think you need a minimum of three good receivers to be a pass first offense. The reason is now you can utilize triangle concepts in either the horizontal or vertical passing offense. Add in a (hopefully) another good receiver in Danny Gray to make those triangle concepts stretch the defenses more and open bigger passing holes for Trey to take advantage of.

The TE: Kittle. Nuff said. He's a super star and paid like it. Every successful passing attack - whatever the variation - needs a very good pass catching TE. A passing offense can take better advantage of Kittle's explosiveness and YAC versus a run dominant offense. A run first offense is just wasting Kittle's talents.

Really nice post Giedi!

Originally posted by GoldandGarnet:
Generally, I agree with you. But I don't think KS can/would open everything up in a season. This offense takes time to grow into. Having said that, there is a reason why this offense takes time to grow into--it evolves. I'm willing to bet that KS's O has morphed at every one of his previous stops. We may not see the full tilt of this for another couple of years.

To your point, not having the ability to take deep shots and throw outside the number is an obvious problem for us that defenses can and did key on. The best we could do about this is Jimmy's quick release and KS scheming. I think you are speaking to "constraint theory" in that the defense cannot cover everyone all the time, and deal with the run game AND deal with Lance. With Jimmy, there is less pressure on a D. With Lance, the opportunity is there (and hopefully the development and health) to challenge the defense. I think this idea is built into some of Kyle's go-to plays, like the dagger concept. If the safety knows that the deeper route is a decoy, its easy to sit on shallow routes. Just a couple of Lance's throws last year proves he can push the ball down the field and force coverages to be honest, on top of some ability to extend plays.

I don't think it is a matter of if the offense will be different or not, it is just a matter of degree. Lance's development will likely determine that, right? He still has to prove he can hit the easy stuff reliably.

Perfectly captured.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by 49ers808:
Created a thread for this so that the Danny Gray thread doesn't continue this conversation.

Someone said that there has been ZERO indication of our offense changing because Shanny built this team exactly how he wants it and I guess the presumption is we will see more of the same with Lance under center vice Jimmy. I disagree. I think the biggest trade in franchise history for Lance himself IS indication that not only does Shanny want a change but will in fact field a different offense then we've seen since his tenure. I think it will and always will be run first/dominant but with the added element of Trey for 11 on 11 football, Jimmy can't and hasn't done that. I think we will see more of the field used, in particular more deep shots and passes outside the numbers. I won't predict pass attempts as was asked in the other thread because IMO that is decided game to game and the scoreboard/defense plays a part in that; but gun to my head I actually think we won't have to pass as much (attempts) due to our run game being better and the deep shots hit or even missed to keep defenses honest. Jimmy hardly even did that. I do expect more pass interference calls then we ever had with Jimmy to go up for that alone. I don't expect all this in essentially Treys rookie season or first as a starter, but I know how it is here and Treys first year will be compared to Jimmy's entire time. Whatever; end of day I think we will see a different offense and we will see that this year granted Trey is the starter

I think eventually it will be more pass-centric offense, again depends on Trey's development. Until then - it will resemble a Bo Shembechkler offense for the most part.

Even if not "pass centric," to 808's reference of ATL, you can still be explosive within limited passing attempts. That offense only passed about 30-40 more times than we normally do but put up nearly 5K of offense and had an excellent running game too. I doubt we get to that level because I think that kind of explosive offense could wear out it's own defense over 17 games so I'd still anticipate more controlled passing and clock management for a better team balance. But yeah, if he can win primarily being run centric, why not!?! It keeps the other top QB's on the bench and our defense fresh and the big boys and Arby's happy imposing their will.

Well, I think, overall - as you said in the other thread - Kyle wants a balanced offense. A good run game helps a good passing game. So, Kyle's style of play will match the opponent and change on a weekly basis based on the kind of defenses Kyle is facing. Big difference between Jimmy and Trey is the arm and the mobility. So to the arm - I can see the offense being more vertical and more outside the hash marks. That's, I think, a no brainer. As for the mobility, that was essential in Walsh's pass first offense. He did bring in Steve Young who was much more mobile vs Joe, for example. A pass catching running back is essential in a pass first offense - it really helps that third down and short conversion. (pass to the RB vs handing it off to the RB). So Sermon's and TDP's development as receivers will be key here too. I think Sermon is already a wonderful pass catching back. He just needs to stop dancing around the hole. Now Gray's speed speaks more to a vertical offense - air Coryell for example. Keep in mind Air Coryell has a strong run component also (example: Chuck Muncie) One evolution past Air Coryell was the one back formation (us ancient fossils should remember the Hogs and John Riggens). Walsh designed the short passing offense around Virgil Carter who has a very weak arm compared to Trey, but it was highly accurate. Trey's arm is much more powerful than Virgil's, and if Trey can develop the short passing accuracy that Virgil and Joe had -- the short passing game is there for the taking.

Position-less offense. If you look at Deebo and how important he plays a role in Kyles offense currently. Imagine what he can do with a QB like Trey. He's a Wide-Back, and he can do it all. Move Deebo around, and with all the other receivers and running backs that can also catch passes, and he'll be tough to stop.

The OLine: if you look at the guards Jaylon, Banks, and Zakelj - they are big power type blockers, whereas you see the OT's and Centers being very athletic and agile and hovering around 300 Lbs, (Trent Williams is unique though) give or take a couple of pounds. You can see Kyle mixing in more inside runs versus the outside runs than before. Those runs, specifically to the left side behind Trent Williams, will help Trey's boot actions and RPOs to the right - where Trey's mobility will be dangerous. So the vertical play pass and the misdirection boot action plays just got more explosive with those potential new guards.

The WRs: you have Deebo, and Aiyuk, but the big development is Jauan. I think you need a minimum of three good receivers to be a pass first offense. The reason is now you can utilize triangle concepts in either the horizontal or vertical passing offense. Add in a (hopefully) another good receiver in Danny Gray to make those triangle concepts stretch the defenses more and open bigger passing holes for Trey to take advantage of.

The TE: Kittle. Nuff said. He's a super star and paid like it. Every successful passing attack - whatever the variation - needs a very good pass catching TE. A passing offense can take better advantage of Kittle's explosiveness and YAC versus a run dominant offense. A run first offense is just wasting Kittle's talents.

Really nice post Giedi!

Yup. Nailed it.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Uh Oh! Air Coryell, here we come!

I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek. But the low-percentage long ball, high interception percentage, and three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust is not Niner football.

BW took Air Coryell to a whole new level with a precision short and medium passing game, capable running, and impeccable execution. He had to wait for a consistent long ball game until he got JR.

That's the template for beautiful football.

We'll see where we are at this season according to that standard.

Go, Trey, go!

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Yup. Nailed it.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Perfectly captured.

Danke, hopefully Trey develops as expected and all these things manifest. As Mayo says -- Go Trey Go!

Originally posted by WestCoastForever:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Uh Oh! Air Coryell, here we come!

I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek. But the low-percentage long ball, high interception percentage, and three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust is not Niner football.

BW took Air Coryell to a whole new level with a precision short and medium passing game, capable running, and impeccable execution. He had to wait for a consistent long ball game until he got JR.

That's the template for beautiful football.

We'll see where we are at this season according to that standard.

I think in this day and age of a pass happy NFL, the run game is a bit of a relief from all the NFL fast break offenses. Personally, the Bo Schembechler offense is a pretty boring one from a play-call point of view. It's a very basic simple offense. There isn't much beauty, timing or precision in it's execution versus the way a pass offense incorporates those aspects. The Bo offense is more of a brute on brute/power on power painful kind of offense.

However, Kyle's run offense is wonderfully creative. I think his run offenses have a lot of timing and precision in it's designs. If Alex Gibbs was Bill Walsh's OLine coach - I think Bill would have had a much more creative run game vs the green bay sweeps the employed as counters to defenses loading up on his passing game. Kyle's run game with the bubble screens, draws, sprint outs, counter tosses, windbacks, traps, QB draws and boots, zone runs, and gap blocking is as fun to watch (for me) as Kyle's passing game is.

The answer is no. The offense will just have more shots downfield and scrambles from the QB position.
Kyle should change nothing about his offense.

Originally posted by pdc20:
The answer is no. The offense will just have more shots downfield and scrambles from the QB position.
Kyle should change nothing about his offense.

Sounds different to me. There will be shift in the way Kyle does some things and it could be independent of the change at QB. Some changes will be due to how the league's defenses are changing. Then consider the new QB, change in skillset and experience, and there will be differences like what you mentioned above.

I think it will and it should change a little. I bet some of the plays called were timing plays that takes years of experience to get down and Kyle was able to call them based on Jimmy's quick release and experience with the WRs. Trey won't be there just yet. Should also see more plays where the primary target is a deep route or a play that can take a bit longer to develop.

I just pray they don't call as many designed QBs runs like they did in Trey's first couple games.

LET TREY SAUTE

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
LET TREY SAUTE

LET TREY FLAMBE

Originally posted by miked1978:
I think it will and it should change a little. I bet some of the plays called were timing plays that takes years of experience to get down and Kyle was able to call them based on Jimmy's quick release and experience with the WRs. Trey won't be there just yet. Should also see more plays where the primary target is a deep route or a play that can take a bit longer to develop.

I just pray they don't call as many designed QBs runs like they did in Trey's first couple games.

A coach that refuses to evolve gets left in the dust. Imo, I believe those designed runs were mainly to get certain looks on tape. I don't think we'll ever see a heavy dose of designed runs again like in the AZ game. Like Greg Cosell said when talking about Allen. The Bills save a majority of his designed runs for big games. I think Shanahan will do the same with Trey.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by miked1978:
I think it will and it should change a little. I bet some of the plays called were timing plays that takes years of experience to get down and Kyle was able to call them based on Jimmy's quick release and experience with the WRs. Trey won't be there just yet. Should also see more plays where the primary target is a deep route or a play that can take a bit longer to develop.

I just pray they don't call as many designed QBs runs like they did in Trey's first couple games.

A coach that refuses to evolve gets left in the dust. Imo, I believe those designed runs were mainly to get certain looks on tape. I don't think we'll ever see a heavy dose of designed runs again like in the AZ game. Like Greg Cosell said when talking about Allen. The Bills save a majority of his designed runs for big games. I think Shanahan will do the same with Trey.

That makes sense. Like taking deeper shots and finding success, it just gives the DC one more thing to think about. A split second hesitation is all Kyle needs.