Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by StubbyNBY:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Well Chris Foerster (I haven't had a good OL since I coached the 2006 Ravens) said he was good.
The Redskins 2012 O-Line was pretty dam good.
Okay I'll give him the 2012 O-line. It wasn't shabby.
bad pass protection
Not in 2012. They gave up 33 sacks, by comparison, Brady was sacked 27 times that same year and the fewest sacks surrendered by a team were 22. Harbs OL gave up 41.
Take that number with a grain of salt. One of the reasons why I'm not a fan of PFF because it's hard to flatten important context. RG3 was the QB so by definition their sack numbers are naturally going to be lower not to mention they were even more of a rushing team than the Harbaugh squads. Washington was the top rushing team in 2012 with over 500 attempts. They should have lower sacks because of their offense. Harbs OL weren't great at PP and I think that's the point - only 8 less sacks that year despite pass protecting much, much less than their opponents while running way, way more.
I wasn't using PFF as a source though, for whatever that's worth.
DangerRuss went 8 straight seasons with 40+ sacks so being mobile doesn't necessarily lower a team's sack numbers. Kap took 39 sacks in 2013 and 52 the year after despite his mobility.
In 2012, the Skins had 6 total more pass attempts on the season than we did and 27 more rush attempts.
I'm sorry evil didn't mean to imply that you used PFF - I know you totally didn't. You do have a point and thank you for pointing that out.
I was saying that when comparing teams it's hard to flatten and just compare what was happening in Washington in 2012 vs what happened in SF in 2013. I'm comparing SF year with Redskins best year 2012 vs 2013. 49ers sacks allowed 39 and Washington 33. What I'm arguing is that is hard to compare because the offenses are so different. Greg Roman vs Kyle Shanahan and that has I think a significant effect on outcomes despite both QBs. I fell into my own logic trap just looking at the too quickly without considering other factors.
When I sit and think about it a bit more in understand why the Washington (2012) 10-6 team wasn't as good as the 49er (2013) 12-4 team, I'd say the initial answer is defense. As far as DangerRuss going 8 straight season with 40+ sacks, again the argument is when were his teams most dangers while allowing all those sacks? When they were tops with defense. So are sacks the end-all/be-all stat? Depends what the team overall is doing. I'd say what's easier to evaluate is comparing the 2012/13/14 49ers teams and asking the same question vs comparing with Washington.
But since we're evaluating Chris Forester, his best line seems to be the 2012 team. Subsequent teams, seems like the INT rate increased. Pressure related? possibly. I haven't studied Washington in years outside of 2012.
The other possible problem of course with allowing so many sacks/hits is that in both cases, 49ers and Washington, you run the risk of getting your FQB injured - both Alex Smith and RG3 were knocked out and never started for their teams again. This is why it's hard just to look at "sacks allowed" and directly correlate that to W-L without digging into the context more. A team may or may not have the talent in other areas to pick up the slack. That 2014 49ers season is also super interesting; 8-8 despite having the 5th rank D.
I agree that there are a litany of factors and variables that are in play each and every week and year. I simply chimed in to note that, they did do well but it is but one season.
My biggest personal concern with Forester is with regard to developing the younger talent. I don't doubt his ability to teach this scheme, he has a load of experience there. But developing and cultivating the youngins is what we really need with guys like Brendel, Moore, Banks, Burford, Bakelj.
We are absolutely on the same page and share the same concerns. I just don't see a lot of development examples of OL coming out of his coaching systems. As I shared in the OL thread, my hope is Lynn and other coaches help in those areas.
Development has been a real issue if one was hoping for a D.J. Jones-like (5th round + pick) on the offensive side. That higher end starter just hasn't happened beyond Mike McGlinchey who he, himself, has not improved one bit from college.
Beyond that, my biggest concern this year is the run blocking. We're about to see a big shift in philosophy and personnel. We saw this team when it couldn't run in the playoffs. It's not pretty because it then forces the OL to do what they do worse...pass protect in predictable situations in 2nd and 3rd and long.
That new running game is what I'll be watching closely this off season.
This is just me, but I think Bobby Turner taking a breather for one year - actually may signal a huge change in run game philosophy. Not saying Turner won't be back, but the last two drafts, 49ers have drafted a running backs. The drafts from 2017 to 2020, no running backs other than Joe Williams in the fourth round during all those years. All of a sudden just the last two years, we have three drafted running backs -- Trey Sermon, Elijah Mitchell and TDP - all *drafted* and they are all *big backs.* (well bigger than the typical Brieda/Mostert RB standard)
Something is up at 4949 Marie P. Debartolo way.
P.S. on offensive linemen development. Personally, I'd start with stability at the OLine coaching. Losing Benton, I don't think has helped the stability at the coaching side of the OLine. Second is injuries. Injuries take away from the OLine Reps. Those reps help the entire OLine perform better. Finally, Kyle needs to find that McKittrick/Scarnecchia 2.0 coach that the whole entire NFL covets.
