Week 3 @ Denver Broncos Coaches Film analysis thread

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
jd, do you notice the 49er CBs playing man coverage more frequently when compared to last season? The defense still seems very zone dominant, but it could just be the specific weekly gameplan. I thought the signing of Charvarious Ward could mean some instances of blitzing backed with man, but I don't think I've seen it. The coverage calls seem identical to last season.

What I've noticed is more Fangio like palms coverage. Which transitions to man past 8 yards deep. This is what is allowing the safeties to play so aggressively over the middle - think of the big pass break-up by Mooney Ward vs Jeudy. Ward picked him up in man-cov on that deep post beautifully. We're probably playing a tad more man-cov than last year, with the exception of the first GB game, but we used to play a lot more straight C4, now it's matching 4's because we trust the corners.

Is Palms, Read2, and Cover7 considered variations of Quarters, or are they the same thing? I am familiar with Cover7 because a few authors have done write ups on this Nick Saban coverage, and I see the 49ers doing this. I definitely see the 49ers in what I generically refer to as 'Quarters' - CBs giving a 7 yard cushion while the safeties are at 12 yards depth and are making flat foot reads, matching the #2 if they go "vertical". I consider all forms of Quarters a pattern match coverage.
There are a lot of similarities to what Fangio did when it comes to the pattern matching concepts being used when they play this Cover4 shell. The key is the four man pass rush being able to generate pressure. Put a lid on everything and rally to the underneath throw.



This looks like Saban's Cover7 where they basically divide the field in half to play 4v3 and 3v2, then pattern match out of it. Levels to the right, Spot/Snag to the left. The only route open is the short dig.




(not about the above) On many "3rd and pass it" downs, offenses are opting to chip block and that's making things worse (for the QB) in most situations. Can't stretch zones when there are only three routes going out, with two routes lagging behind (due to chip blocking). I knew Fangio wasn't in the building to offer his thoughts to Ryans about front 7 play, since the 49ers are still a one gap front. Looks like it's to offer advice on how to implement coverage schemes.

So, palms and cover 7 are similar. I learned them as palms and Sherm always refers to it as palms as well. I know Saleh used that terminology. There was one presser where Sherm was asked what happened on a TD in the RZ and Sherm said, "no we were in palms coverage there".

Palms is usually a deeper matching rule compared to Sabans. Palms is matching at 8 yards vertical on the #2 and only the #2. If the #3 goes vertical you bracket that with traditional quarters coverage so the offense can't beat you with verticals from #3 and #2 and squat with #1
Cover7 the #3 will get matched by the Mike and the #1 on either side are MEG(man everywhere they go) from the snap. Palms the corners are in MOD(man on demand).
Read2 the corners will only match vertical if the #1 goes vertical. If #2 goes vertical that's on the safety.

That's as far as I understand it as coverage. What's interesting, Kyle doesn't even consider these as coverages for the offensive playbook. He has C4 in base and Nickel and as zone drop coverages and that's it.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Because, just because Jimmy has a bad rep, doesn't excuse Aiyuk having a bad rep too. If Aiyuk has a good rep, it's still a first down, we move and score points. If Jimmy has a good rep we score points - both plays are negatives. If either one are positive, we score points. Spotlighting Jimmy isn't wrong, but it absolves Aiyuk of responsibility.

I just had this convo with John Chapman on his show - my point is, Aiyuk is a 25th overall pick in his 3rd year and there were many times when he was in 1v1 coverage with Surtain, we wanted to get him the ball and he didn't create much separation, if any. He was a first round WR. He needs to be in that conversation with Jaylen Waddle, Mike Evans, Davante Adams, Davonte Smith - guys who their ability to defeat man-cov in a ton of ways - slants, quick outs, corner routes, stop routes, sluggo's, basic, unders all sorts of routes, that it forces a DC to change the way they're going to play defense. Aiyuk is a good player right now. We need him to be that X receiver and force defenses to double him.

Seemed to me from the different breakdowns Aiyuk won more reps than he lost that were spotlighted. Pretty sure it's him on the sack play from the last drive matched up with Josey Jewell and he just torches him but Jimmy doesn't take the shot.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
jd, do you notice the 49er CBs playing man coverage more frequently when compared to last season? The defense still seems very zone dominant, but it could just be the specific weekly gameplan. I thought the signing of Charvarious Ward could mean some instances of blitzing backed with man, but I don't think I've seen it. The coverage calls seem identical to last season.

What I've noticed is more Fangio like palms coverage. Which transitions to man past 8 yards deep. This is what is allowing the safeties to play so aggressively over the middle - think of the big pass break-up by Mooney Ward vs Jeudy. Ward picked him up in man-cov on that deep post beautifully. We're probably playing a tad more man-cov than last year, with the exception of the first GB game, but we used to play a lot more straight C4, now it's matching 4's because we trust the corners.

Is Palms, Read2, and Cover7 considered variations of Quarters, or are they the same thing? I am familiar with Cover7 because a few authors have done write ups on this Nick Saban coverage, and I see the 49ers doing this. I definitely see the 49ers in what I generically refer to as 'Quarters' - CBs giving a 7 yard cushion while the safeties are at 12 yards depth and are making flat foot reads, matching the #2 if they go "vertical". I consider all forms of Quarters a pattern match coverage.
There are a lot of similarities to what Fangio did when it comes to the pattern matching concepts being used when they play this Cover4 shell. The key is the four man pass rush being able to generate pressure. Put a lid on everything and rally to the underneath throw.



This looks like Saban's Cover7 where they basically divide the field in half to play 4v3 and 3v2, then pattern match out of it. Levels to the right, Spot/Snag to the left. The only route open is the short dig.




(not about the above) On many "3rd and pass it" downs, offenses are opting to chip block and that's making things worse (for the QB) in most situations. Can't stretch zones when there are only three routes going out, with two routes lagging behind (due to chip blocking). I knew Fangio wasn't in the building to offer his thoughts to Ryans about front 7 play, since the 49ers are still a one gap front. Looks like it's to offer advice on how to implement coverage schemes.

So, palms and cover 7 are similar. I learned them as palms and Sherm always refers to it as palms as well. I know Saleh used that terminology. There was one presser where Sherm was asked what happened on a TD in the RZ and Sherm said, "no we were in palms coverage there".

Palms is usually a deeper matching rule compared to Sabans. Palms is matching at 8 yards vertical on the #2 and only the #2. If the #3 goes vertical you bracket that with traditional quarters coverage so the offense can't beat you with verticals from #3 and #2 and squat with #1
Cover7 the #3 will get matched by the Mike and the #1 on either side are MEG(man everywhere they go) from the snap. Palms the corners are in MOD(man on demand).
Read2 the corners will only match vertical if the #1 goes vertical. If #2 goes vertical that's on the safety.

That's as far as I understand it as coverage. What's interesting, Kyle doesn't even consider these as coverages for the offensive playbook. He has C4 in base and Nickel and as zone drop coverages and that's it.

I'm gonna need some diagrams to understand what you just threw at me with differentiating between Palms and Cover7 lol. Just kidding, no need.

In that play I gif'ed above, is that Palms, and if so how can you tell? Warner (MIKE) matched the number 3 but only after the routes are distributed. When the presnap #3 goes the flat, he's no longer Warner's responsibility.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Because, just because Jimmy has a bad rep, doesn't excuse Aiyuk having a bad rep too. If Aiyuk has a good rep, it's still a first down, we move and score points. If Jimmy has a good rep we score points - both plays are negatives. If either one are positive, we score points. Spotlighting Jimmy isn't wrong, but it absolves Aiyuk of responsibility.

I just had this convo with John Chapman on his show - my point is, Aiyuk is a 25th overall pick in his 3rd year and there were many times when he was in 1v1 coverage with Surtain, we wanted to get him the ball and he didn't create much separation, if any. He was a first round WR. He needs to be in that conversation with Jaylen Waddle, Mike Evans, Davante Adams, Davonte Smith - guys who their ability to defeat man-cov in a ton of ways - slants, quick outs, corner routes, stop routes, sluggo's, basic, unders all sorts of routes, that it forces a DC to change the way they're going to play defense. Aiyuk is a good player right now. We need him to be that X receiver and force defenses to double him.

Seemed to me from the different breakdowns Aiyuk won more reps than he lost that were spotlighted. Pretty sure it's him on the sack play from the last drive matched up with Josey Jewell and he just torches him but Jimmy doesn't take the shot.

Yeah, and I mentioned that in my video too. Not talking about him beating Jewel, there were a number of reps he got blanketed by Surtain and a couple we wanted to get the ball to Aiyuk.

My biggest issue with the game was the easy yards/points that were left on the field. And how the poor offensive performance overshadowed a dominant defensive showing. It left a bad taste in my mouth. In my mind, it was an easy win.

In all honesty, I believe they will right this ship. Shanahan is too good of a coach to let poor execution be the downfall of this season when he still has a healthy top 15 capable QB behind center. We were in an arguably worse situation last season at 3-5 with the same HC and same QB but with a mediocre secondary.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
jd, do you notice the 49er CBs playing man coverage more frequently when compared to last season? The defense still seems very zone dominant, but it could just be the specific weekly gameplan. I thought the signing of Charvarious Ward could mean some instances of blitzing backed with man, but I don't think I've seen it. The coverage calls seem identical to last season.

What I've noticed is more Fangio like palms coverage. Which transitions to man past 8 yards deep. This is what is allowing the safeties to play so aggressively over the middle - think of the big pass break-up by Mooney Ward vs Jeudy. Ward picked him up in man-cov on that deep post beautifully. We're probably playing a tad more man-cov than last year, with the exception of the first GB game, but we used to play a lot more straight C4, now it's matching 4's because we trust the corners.

Is Palms, Read2, and Cover7 considered variations of Quarters, or are they the same thing? I am familiar with Cover7 because a few authors have done write ups on this Nick Saban coverage, and I see the 49ers doing this. I definitely see the 49ers in what I generically refer to as 'Quarters' - CBs giving a 7 yard cushion while the safeties are at 12 yards depth and are making flat foot reads, matching the #2 if they go "vertical". I consider all forms of Quarters a pattern match coverage.
There are a lot of similarities to what Fangio did when it comes to the pattern matching concepts being used when they play this Cover4 shell. The key is the four man pass rush being able to generate pressure. Put a lid on everything and rally to the underneath throw.



This looks like Saban's Cover7 where they basically divide the field in half to play 4v3 and 3v2, then pattern match out of it. Levels to the right, Spot/Snag to the left. The only route open is the short dig.




(not about the above) On many "3rd and pass it" downs, offenses are opting to chip block and that's making things worse (for the QB) in most situations. Can't stretch zones when there are only three routes going out, with two routes lagging behind (due to chip blocking). I knew Fangio wasn't in the building to offer his thoughts to Ryans about front 7 play, since the 49ers are still a one gap front. Looks like it's to offer advice on how to implement coverage schemes.

So, palms and cover 7 are similar. I learned them as palms and Sherm always refers to it as palms as well. I know Saleh used that terminology. There was one presser where Sherm was asked what happened on a TD in the RZ and Sherm said, "no we were in palms coverage there".

Palms is usually a deeper matching rule compared to Sabans. Palms is matching at 8 yards vertical on the #2 and only the #2. If the #3 goes vertical you bracket that with traditional quarters coverage so the offense can't beat you with verticals from #3 and #2 and squat with #1
Cover7 the #3 will get matched by the Mike and the #1 on either side are MEG(man everywhere they go) from the snap. Palms the corners are in MOD(man on demand).
Read2 the corners will only match vertical if the #1 goes vertical. If #2 goes vertical that's on the safety.

That's as far as I understand it as coverage. What's interesting, Kyle doesn't even consider these as coverages for the offensive playbook. He has C4 in base and Nickel and as zone drop coverages and that's it.

I'm gonna need some diagrams to understand what you just threw at me with differentiating between Palms and Cover7 lol. Just kidding, no need.

In that play I gif'ed above, is that Palms, and if so how can you tell? Warner (MIKE) matched the number 3 but only after the routes are distributed. When the presnap #3 goes the flat, he's no longer Warner's responsibility.

That looks palms to me as the Mike will shade to the 3 side.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I don't understand why Aiyuk losing his route matters in the context of the play where Jimmy missed Deebo running down the right sidelines.

Jimmy initially looked to his right (off his primary receiver?) to the trips receiver side and then looked left and threw to Aiyuk with the safety crashing down.

He didn't read the safety. He didn't see Deebo wide open even though he was looking right at him. But the play failed because Aiyuk didn't win his route?

I mean… even the pass behind Deebo was apparently not Jimmy's fault either. Because why? Jimmy was under pressure? QBs can still make that play happen around the league. Idk why it's not fair to say Jimmy should have made those.

All of last season I was told that Trey shouldn't get any reps because Jimmy's much better at reading defenses. I really don't think that's true at all. He just has a much more repeatable throwing motion, a very quick release, and many more years of experience. But his footwork and pocket movement has been dreadful over the years. It's almost like he compensates for his lack of mobility by throwing off his back foot and utilizing that release, so he doesn't actively practice the footwork necessary to throw deep. He gets lazy with his footwork and lazy with his eyes way too often IMO.

Because, just because Jimmy has a bad rep, doesn't excuse Aiyuk having a bad rep too. If Aiyuk has a good rep, it's still a first down, we move and score points. If Jimmy has a good rep we score points - both plays are negatives. If either one are positive, we score points. Spotlighting Jimmy isn't wrong, but it absolves Aiyuk of responsibility.

I just had this convo with John Chapman on his show - my point is, Aiyuk is a 25th overall pick in his 3rd year and there were many times when he was in 1v1 coverage with Surtain, we wanted to get him the ball and he didn't create much separation, if any. He was a first round WR. He needs to be in that conversation with Jaylen Waddle, Mike Evans, Davante Adams, Davonte Smith - guys who their ability to defeat man-cov in a ton of ways - slants, quick outs, corner routes, stop routes, sluggo's, basic, unders all sorts of routes, that it forces a DC to change the way they're going to play defense. Aiyuk is a good player right now. We need him to be that X receiver and force defenses to double him.

IMO, if Jimmy has a good rep, we score a touchdown. If Aiyuk has a good rep, we get a first down, with the assumption Jimmy would have made the throw. There's an added assumption that Jimmy would have made a good throw if Aiyuk beat his man. Sure, there's an assumption that Deebo would have caught the pass for a touchdown, but I think it's more rare to see a wide open drop than an errant pass. So that's why I don't think it's fair to phrase it in a way as if those mistakes are equal in severity. On nearly every play, you can find someone not winning their route or giving up a pressure, so to me, losing on a route is way more common then a wide open touchdown that was missed by the QB. Which is why Jimmy should be considered the main reason that play failed, not the only reason, but the main reason.

Aiyuk was playing against one of the best CBs in the game. I do think he can be better and he needs to be better, just like Jimmy. Again, I don't think it's wrong to point out Aiyuk not winning his route, I just think the mistakes are not equal.

I also don't get why you say "Brendel fumbled the snap". It's called a QB-center exchange. It's the centers responsibility to know the snap count and it's the QBs responsibility to stay under center until the ball is secured. I mean, I could understand if the snap count was on 2 and the center snapped it on 1. The QB wouldn't be expecting the ball in that situation. In this situation, the center snapped the ball late and from all angles it shows it hit Jimmy directly in the hands. Nothing about the snap itself looked out of place. Jimmy pulled up before he secured the snap. I know Kyle said that's on the center but as a former coach (not saying I know 1% of what Kyle does) but I would be talking to both the center and QB about that play. IMO Kyle would blame the center 100% of the time due to him snapping on the wrong cadence. Throughout Kyle's time here, he's put on a clinic about how to protect your starting QB in the media. He's usually blames himself or blames anyone other than the QB. He knows he can somewhat control the outside pressure from the media by not publicly shaming his QB.
He would have done the exact same thing with Trey and yet I wouldn't want Trey to be absolved of any blame for a play like that either.

I know this is nitpicking and the videos take time and I appreciate all the hard work that goes into them. I never try to be condescending or anything I just feel like this should be remembered as a game that Jimmy should shoulder most of the blame. Because right now, I feel like people are blaming Kyle just as much and as much as I have criticized Kyle this season, this game was more about Jimmy.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I don't understand why Aiyuk losing his route matters in the context of the play where Jimmy missed Deebo running down the right sidelines.

Jimmy initially looked to his right (off his primary receiver?) to the trips receiver side and then looked left and threw to Aiyuk with the safety crashing down.

He didn't read the safety. He didn't see Deebo wide open even though he was looking right at him. But the play failed because Aiyuk didn't win his route?

I mean… even the pass behind Deebo was apparently not Jimmy's fault either. Because why? Jimmy was under pressure? QBs can still make that play happen around the league. Idk why it's not fair to say Jimmy should have made those.

All of last season I was told that Trey shouldn't get any reps because Jimmy's much better at reading defenses. I really don't think that's true at all. He just has a much more repeatable throwing motion, a very quick release, and many more years of experience. But his footwork and pocket movement has been dreadful over the years. It's almost like he compensates for his lack of mobility by throwing off his back foot and utilizing that release, so he doesn't actively practice the footwork necessary to throw deep. He gets lazy with his footwork and lazy with his eyes way too often IMO.

The play where they were in trips bunch and Deebo had his hand up? That's on Jimmy imo. I've mentioned this already, but DEN was blowing assignments when trying to man-match trips formations. When Deebo and Kittle criss crossed, DEN got confused and blew coverage. It's up to Jimmy to see that. He was looking right there and looked away. No idea what he wanted more of there. Would have been an easy 40 yard gain, at least.

Yeah, I just don't understand how people can say Jimmy's so much better at reads and yet he can't look past his primary target… or when his primary target doesn't get open, then the play wasn't his fault.

look at that great pocket... wish NC could see this

Whenever vids like this come about, expect a heated discussion about OL rankings and pass rush rates to ease away from it.

Originally posted by Waterbear:
IMO, if Jimmy has a good rep, we score a touchdown. If Aiyuk has a good rep, we get a first down, with the assumption Jimmy would have made the throw. There's an added assumption that Jimmy would have made a good throw if Aiyuk beat his man. Sure, there's an assumption that Deebo would have caught the pass for a touchdown, but I think it's more rare to see a wide open drop than an errant pass. So that's why I don't think it's fair to phrase it in a way as if those mistakes are equal in severity. On nearly every play, you can find someone not winning their route or giving up a pressure, so to me, losing on a route is way more common then a wide open touchdown that was missed by the QB. Which is why Jimmy should be considered the main reason that play failed, not the only reason, but the main reason.

Aiyuk was playing against one of the best CBs in the game. I do think he can be better and he needs to be better, just like Jimmy. Again, I don't think it's wrong to point out Aiyuk not winning his route, I just think the mistakes are not equal.

I also don't get why you say "Brendel fumbled the snap". It's called a QB-center exchange. It's the centers responsibility to know the snap count and it's the QBs responsibility to stay under center until the ball is secured. I mean, I could understand if the snap count was on 2 and the center snapped it on 1. The QB wouldn't be expecting the ball in that situation. In this situation, the center snapped the ball late and from all angles it shows it hit Jimmy directly in the hands. Nothing about the snap itself looked out of place. Jimmy pulled up before he secured the snap. I know Kyle said that's on the center but as a former coach (not saying I know 1% of what Kyle does) but I would be talking to both the center and QB about that play. IMO Kyle would blame the center 100% of the time due to him snapping on the wrong cadence. Throughout Kyle's time here, he's put on a clinic about how to protect your starting QB in the media. He's usually blames himself or blames anyone other than the QB. He knows he can somewhat control the outside pressure from the media by not publicly shaming his QB.
He would have done the exact same thing with Trey and yet I wouldn't want Trey to be absolved of any blame for a play like that either.

I know this is nitpicking and the videos take time and I appreciate all the hard work that goes into them. I never try to be condescending or anything I just feel like this should be remembered as a game that Jimmy should shoulder most of the blame. Because right now, I feel like people are blaming Kyle just as much and as much as I have criticized Kyle this season, this game was more about Jimmy.

Your final few sentences may reveal something. You feel like more people are blaming Kyle and Jimmy should shouldn't more blame. I think you're reacting from that mindset. I shared on reddit that I felt Jimmy should shoulder the lions share of the blame. If you think about the video, I've talked about numerous mistakes Jimmy made. More than Aiyuk, or Brendel, or McGlinchey or Juice or any other single player.

I never said the two results are equal. I said it was bad in top of bad. Maybe I should said it was bad on top of very bad but I came away from the game with that theme and was branding the phrase into the theme of the video. Just trying to communicate clearly is all I was trying to do.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
Your final few sentences may reveal something. You feel like more people are blaming Kyle and Jimmy should shouldn't more blame. I think you're reacting from that mindset. I shared on reddit that I felt Jimmy should shoulder the lions share of the blame. If you think about the video, I've talked about numerous mistakes Jimmy made. More than Aiyuk, or Brendel, or McGlinchey or Juice or any other single player.

I never said the two results are equal. I said it was bad in top of bad. Maybe I should said it was bad on top of very bad but I came away from the game with that theme and was branding the phrase into the theme of the video. Just trying to communicate clearly is all I was trying to do.

I'm only responding to the video because I haven't seen your Reddit post. But yes I agree with that that assessment. I'm viewing it with the mindset that some are equally blaming the coach for this game. I think there should be some way to distinguish bad and from more bad, I didn't mean to say you said they were equal, just that the phrasing of your words made it sound equal. But there's been many times the "more bad" is the defense, penalties, offensive line, or drops/fumbles. This game was one of the worst I've seen from Jimmy, I expect him to bounce back, but last Sunday he was more bad.

There will be games that Jimmy doesn't play well but the offense around him has a worse game. In those situations, I think it's fair to point out why those mistakes from players around him were the more impactful mistakes. Again, I'm nitpicking, but IMO it matters the degree to which these mistakes affect the game.

And if we're going to share blame, then Jimmy letting the ball bounce off his hands on the fumble is part of that. Brendel ruined our ability to have a positive play, but Jimmy added to it by letting it fall to the ground. Just like Aiyuk compounded the issue of Jimmy missing Deebo by not winning his route.

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I'm only responding to the video because I haven't seen your Reddit post. But yes I agree with that that assessment. I'm viewing it with the mindset that some are equally blaming the coach for this game. I think there should be some way to distinguish bad and from more bad, I didn't mean to say you said they were equal, just that the phrasing of your words made it sound equal. But there's been many times the "more bad" is the defense, penalties, offensive line, or drops/fumbles. This game was one of the worst I've seen from Jimmy, I expect him to bounce back, but last Sunday he was more bad.

There will be games that Jimmy doesn't play well but the offense around him has a worse game. In those situations, I think it's fair to point out why those mistakes from players around him were the more impactful mistakes. Again, I'm nitpicking, but IMO it matters the degree to which these mistakes affect the game.

And if we're going to share blame, then Jimmy letting the ball bounce off his hands on the fumble is part of that. Brendel ruined our ability to have a positive play, but Jimmy added to it by letting it fall to the ground. Just like Aiyuk compounded the issue of Jimmy missing Deebo by not winning his route.

WB, no doubt this will forever be known as the JG fubar game you can't run out the back while getting picked sixed. It was terrible. Take whatever contract he will get next year.. okay now cut it in half. He lost millions on that play.

Originally posted by miked1978:

Originally posted by Sanfran_chrisco:

Originally posted by random49er:
The 7 TD, 5 INT performance over 5 games? Nothing phenomenal about 7 TDs over 5 games with at least 1 pick per game.

But this is a league of adjustments. There has been plenty of time to further adjust to his game now once those games have been archived. He played his way into a great contract and if anything it adds to the point.

for just getting traded and having no offseason with the team, he played good ball on a new team and on a 1-10 team at that current time with hardly any weapons. the point is, he always seems to do better when he's thrown in the fire on the fly.

This is true. Also was true for Nick Mullens. He was the 2nd coming of Christ a few years ago during a stretch when he took over. Maybe thats how Kyle needs to coach them. Dont give them the playbook all week and just have them start cold and call plays accordingly.

Lol

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
That play is very frustrating. Mostly because Jimmy was looking right at it and Deebo, being a vertical route, is most likely first in the progression. I'd love to know what Jimmy didn't like about what he saw there. That better not be the play where Jimmy (supposedly) mouths "your plays suck man".

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a water concept - Kyle has quite a few of the "water" concepts in their paired with variations. There's "flag water, which replaces the corner route with a deep out. There's Choice-water shallow which replaces the quick out with a choice route to go in or out(the Kittle play vs the Saints), "H choice water' which is where the H back runs the choice route on the water. There's "banner water" where the quick out is replaced with a whip route - out/in. which, the water is always a shallow cross(water) and a basic and then the variation will be the quick out. C.O is a quick out.

It looks like Jennings runs the wrong route here cause he gets jammed but is running the same route as Deebo - he was supposed to run the shallow-cross. Deebo is the alert - which Jimmy obviously should see. But, there's the progression. The confusion for Jennings was on which receiver he was as you see the shallow-cross is denoted by the player designation and "water"

f**k all that. throw it to Deebo.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
jd, do you notice the 49er CBs playing man coverage more frequently when compared to last season? The defense still seems very zone dominant, but it could just be the specific weekly gameplan. I thought the signing of Charvarious Ward could mean some instances of blitzing backed with man, but I don't think I've seen it. The coverage calls seem identical to last season.

What I've noticed is more Fangio like palms coverage. Which transitions to man past 8 yards deep. This is what is allowing the safeties to play so aggressively over the middle - think of the big pass break-up by Mooney Ward vs Jeudy. Ward picked him up in man-cov on that deep post beautifully. We're probably playing a tad more man-cov than last year, with the exception of the first GB game, but we used to play a lot more straight C4, now it's matching 4's because we trust the corners.

Is Palms, Read2, and Cover7 considered variations of Quarters, or are they the same thing? I am familiar with Cover7 because a few authors have done write ups on this Nick Saban coverage, and I see the 49ers doing this. I definitely see the 49ers in what I generically refer to as 'Quarters' - CBs giving a 7 yard cushion while the safeties are at 12 yards depth and are making flat foot reads, matching the #2 if they go "vertical". I consider all forms of Quarters a pattern match coverage.
There are a lot of similarities to what Fangio did when it comes to the pattern matching concepts being used when they play this Cover4 shell. The key is the four man pass rush being able to generate pressure. Put a lid on everything and rally to the underneath throw.



This looks like Saban's Cover7 where they basically divide the field in half to play 4v3 and 3v2, then pattern match out of it. Levels to the right, Spot/Snag to the left. The only route open is the short dig.




(not about the above) On many "3rd and pass it" downs, offenses are opting to chip block and that's making things worse (for the QB) in most situations. Can't stretch zones when there are only three routes going out, with two routes lagging behind (due to chip blocking). I knew Fangio wasn't in the building to offer his thoughts to Ryans about front 7 play, since the 49ers are still a one gap front. Looks like it's to offer advice on how to implement coverage schemes.

So, palms and cover 7 are similar. I learned them as palms and Sherm always refers to it as palms as well. I know Saleh used that terminology. There was one presser where Sherm was asked what happened on a TD in the RZ and Sherm said, "no we were in palms coverage there".

Palms is usually a deeper matching rule compared to Sabans. Palms is matching at 8 yards vertical on the #2 and only the #2. If the #3 goes vertical you bracket that with traditional quarters coverage so the offense can't beat you with verticals from #3 and #2 and squat with #1
Cover7 the #3 will get matched by the Mike and the #1 on either side are MEG(man everywhere they go) from the snap. Palms the corners are in MOD(man on demand).
Read2 the corners will only match vertical if the #1 goes vertical. If #2 goes vertical that's on the safety.

That's as far as I understand it as coverage. What's interesting, Kyle doesn't even consider these as coverages for the offensive playbook. He has C4 in base and Nickel and as zone drop coverages and that's it.

I'm gonna need some diagrams to understand what you just threw at me with differentiating between Palms and Cover7 lol. Just kidding, no need.

In that play I gif'ed above, is that Palms, and if so how can you tell? Warner (MIKE) matched the number 3 but only after the routes are distributed. When the presnap #3 goes the flat, he's no longer Warner's responsibility.

That looks palms to me as the Mike will shade to the 3 side.

Here's that play by Mooney you mentioned. I like the communication between Moseley and Huf here. Looks to me like Moseley recognizes the Pin concept (Post + Dig) and passes off the dig to Huf so that Moseley can go help cover the Post.
Gipson got toasted and is fortunate Mooney was on his game here. If I understand this coverage correctly, since the #2 (inline TE) does not go vertical, Gipson is supposed to double the #1. What Mooney did is not easy. This play is designed to beat Quarters.

There was a steady mix of Cover2 and Cover3 in the first two games, and vs DEN was more Cover4. Ryans mixes things up coverage wise throughout the course of a game, drive to drive. For a playcaller against this defense, it won't be easy to get a beat on what Ryans will dial up. This was one of the more stealthy disguises I saw from this game.
3rd & 8. Guess the coverage. RB and TE both check release. What's a good route to target?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Cover 2 Zone
Presnap look was man. Deep slant would be a good choice vs man. Warner gains depth to take it away.