Week 3 @ Denver Broncos Coaches Film analysis thread

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
jd, do you notice the 49er CBs playing man coverage more frequently when compared to last season? The defense still seems very zone dominant, but it could just be the specific weekly gameplan. I thought the signing of Charvarious Ward could mean some instances of blitzing backed with man, but I don't think I've seen it. The coverage calls seem identical to last season.

What I've noticed is more Fangio like palms coverage. Which transitions to man past 8 yards deep. This is what is allowing the safeties to play so aggressively over the middle - think of the big pass break-up by Mooney Ward vs Jeudy. Ward picked him up in man-cov on that deep post beautifully. We're probably playing a tad more man-cov than last year, with the exception of the first GB game, but we used to play a lot more straight C4, now it's matching 4's because we trust the corners.

Is Palms, Read2, and Cover7 considered variations of Quarters, or are they the same thing? I am familiar with Cover7 because a few authors have done write ups on this Nick Saban coverage, and I see the 49ers doing this. I definitely see the 49ers in what I generically refer to as 'Quarters' - CBs giving a 7 yard cushion while the safeties are at 12 yards depth and are making flat foot reads, matching the #2 if they go "vertical". I consider all forms of Quarters a pattern match coverage.
There are a lot of similarities to what Fangio did when it comes to the pattern matching concepts being used when they play this Cover4 shell. The key is the four man pass rush being able to generate pressure. Put a lid on everything and rally to the underneath throw.



This looks like Saban's Cover7 where they basically divide the field in half to play 4v3 and 3v2, then pattern match out of it. Levels to the right, Spot/Snag to the left. The only route open is the short dig.




(not about the above) On many "3rd and pass it" downs, offenses are opting to chip block and that's making things worse (for the QB) in most situations. Can't stretch zones when there are only three routes going out, with two routes lagging behind (due to chip blocking). I knew Fangio wasn't in the building to offer his thoughts to Ryans about front 7 play, since the 49ers are still a one gap front. Looks like it's to offer advice on how to implement coverage schemes.

So, palms and cover 7 are similar. I learned them as palms and Sherm always refers to it as palms as well. I know Saleh used that terminology. There was one presser where Sherm was asked what happened on a TD in the RZ and Sherm said, "no we were in palms coverage there".

Palms is usually a deeper matching rule compared to Sabans. Palms is matching at 8 yards vertical on the #2 and only the #2. If the #3 goes vertical you bracket that with traditional quarters coverage so the offense can't beat you with verticals from #3 and #2 and squat with #1
Cover7 the #3 will get matched by the Mike and the #1 on either side are MEG(man everywhere they go) from the snap. Palms the corners are in MOD(man on demand).
Read2 the corners will only match vertical if the #1 goes vertical. If #2 goes vertical that's on the safety.

That's as far as I understand it as coverage. What's interesting, Kyle doesn't even consider these as coverages for the offensive playbook. He has C4 in base and Nickel and as zone drop coverages and that's it.

+ Show all quotes
I'm gonna need some diagrams to understand what you just threw at me with differentiating between Palms and Cover7 lol. Just kidding, no need.

In that play I gif'ed above, is that Palms, and if so how can you tell? Warner (MIKE) matched the number 3 but only after the routes are distributed. When the presnap #3 goes the flat, he's no longer Warner's responsibility.

That looks palms to me as the Mike will shade to the 3 side.

Here's that play by Mooney you mentioned. I like the communication between Moseley and Huf here. Looks to me like Moseley recognizes the Pin concept (Post + Dig) and passes off the dig to Huf so that Moseley can go help cover the Post.
Gipson got toasted and is fortunate Mooney was on his game here. If I understand this coverage correctly, since the #2 (inline TE) does not go vertical, Gipson is supposed to double the #1. What Mooney did is not easy. This play is designed to beat Quarters.

correct. since there's no vertical from the #2 Huf will pick up the DIG and Moseley will guard against a post-corner situation/deep crosser. Gipson played the post underneath as a potential crosser and Ward played it as a true vertical route.

Originally posted by thl408:
There was a steady mix of Cover2 and Cover3 in the first two games, and vs DEN was more Cover4. Ryans mixes things up coverage wise throughout the course of a game, drive to drive. For a playcaller against this defense, it won't be easy to get a beat on what Ryans will dial up. This was one of the more stealthy disguises I saw from this game.
3rd & 8. Guess the coverage. RB and TE both check release. What's a good route to target?

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Cover 2 Zone
Presnap look was man. Deep slant would be a good choice vs man. Warner gains depth to take it away.

Ryans reminds me a lot more of Fangio than Saleh.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
jd, do you notice the 49er CBs playing man coverage more frequently when compared to last season? The defense still seems very zone dominant, but it could just be the specific weekly gameplan. I thought the signing of Charvarious Ward could mean some instances of blitzing backed with man, but I don't think I've seen it. The coverage calls seem identical to last season.

What I've noticed is more Fangio like palms coverage. Which transitions to man past 8 yards deep. This is what is allowing the safeties to play so aggressively over the middle - think of the big pass break-up by Mooney Ward vs Jeudy. Ward picked him up in man-cov on that deep post beautifully. We're probably playing a tad more man-cov than last year, with the exception of the first GB game, but we used to play a lot more straight C4, now it's matching 4's because we trust the corners.

Is Palms, Read2, and Cover7 considered variations of Quarters, or are they the same thing? I am familiar with Cover7 because a few authors have done write ups on this Nick Saban coverage, and I see the 49ers doing this. I definitely see the 49ers in what I generically refer to as 'Quarters' - CBs giving a 7 yard cushion while the safeties are at 12 yards depth and are making flat foot reads, matching the #2 if they go "vertical". I consider all forms of Quarters a pattern match coverage.
There are a lot of similarities to what Fangio did when it comes to the pattern matching concepts being used when they play this Cover4 shell. The key is the four man pass rush being able to generate pressure. Put a lid on everything and rally to the underneath throw.



This looks like Saban's Cover7 where they basically divide the field in half to play 4v3 and 3v2, then pattern match out of it. Levels to the right, Spot/Snag to the left. The only route open is the short dig.




(not about the above) On many "3rd and pass it" downs, offenses are opting to chip block and that's making things worse (for the QB) in most situations. Can't stretch zones when there are only three routes going out, with two routes lagging behind (due to chip blocking). I knew Fangio wasn't in the building to offer his thoughts to Ryans about front 7 play, since the 49ers are still a one gap front. Looks like it's to offer advice on how to implement coverage schemes.

So, palms and cover 7 are similar. I learned them as palms and Sherm always refers to it as palms as well. I know Saleh used that terminology. There was one presser where Sherm was asked what happened on a TD in the RZ and Sherm said, "no we were in palms coverage there".

Palms is usually a deeper matching rule compared to Sabans. Palms is matching at 8 yards vertical on the #2 and only the #2. If the #3 goes vertical you bracket that with traditional quarters coverage so the offense can't beat you with verticals from #3 and #2 and squat with #1
Cover7 the #3 will get matched by the Mike and the #1 on either side are MEG(man everywhere they go) from the snap. Palms the corners are in MOD(man on demand).
Read2 the corners will only match vertical if the #1 goes vertical. If #2 goes vertical that's on the safety.

That's as far as I understand it as coverage. What's interesting, Kyle doesn't even consider these as coverages for the offensive playbook. He has C4 in base and Nickel and as zone drop coverages and that's it.

I'm gonna need some diagrams to understand what you just threw at me with differentiating between Palms and Cover7 lol. Just kidding, no need.

In that play I gif'ed above, is that Palms, and if so how can you tell? Warner (MIKE) matched the number 3 but only after the routes are distributed. When the presnap #3 goes the flat, he's no longer Warner's responsibility.

+ Show all quotes
That looks palms to me as the Mike will shade to the 3 side.

Here's that play by Mooney you mentioned. I like the communication between Moseley and Huf here. Looks to me like Moseley recognizes the Pin concept (Post + Dig) and passes off the dig to Huf so that Moseley can go help cover the Post.
Gipson got toasted and is fortunate Mooney was on his game here. If I understand this coverage correctly, since the #2 (inline TE) does not go vertical, Gipson is supposed to double the #1. What Mooney did is not easy. This play is designed to beat Quarters.

correct. since there's no vertical from the #2 Huf will pick up the DIG and Moseley will guard against a post-corner situation/deep crosser. Gipson played the post underneath as a potential crosser and Ward played it as a true vertical route.

Okay, I see it. For Gipson, since there isn't a threat from #2, he and Mooney essentially bracketed the #1 on that side. So Gipson intentionally got into a trail position.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
There was a steady mix of Cover2 and Cover3 in the first two games, and vs DEN was more Cover4. Ryans mixes things up coverage wise throughout the course of a game, drive to drive. For a playcaller against this defense, it won't be easy to get a beat on what Ryans will dial up. This was one of the more stealthy disguises I saw from this game.
3rd & 8. Guess the coverage. RB and TE both check release. What's a good route to target?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Cover 2 Zone
Presnap look was man. Deep slant would be a good choice vs man. Warner gains depth to take it away.

Ryans reminds me a lot more of Fangio than Saleh.

This 49er defense is able to do a lot. I love that Ryans will change things up. This prevents the opposing offense from being able to go into a game knowing exactly what's coming.
What do you mean by Ryans reminds you more of Fangio? Is it the pattern match concepts? Like you mentioned above, that wasn't happening as much in 2021 because the CBs weren't as experienced/good. Perhaps it was Fangio being in the building this past offseason that has helped the 49ers incorporate more pattern matching, in addition to the improvement in CB talent.

This thread is

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
There was a steady mix of Cover2 and Cover3 in the first two games, and vs DEN was more Cover4. Ryans mixes things up coverage wise throughout the course of a game, drive to drive. For a playcaller against this defense, it won't be easy to get a beat on what Ryans will dial up. This was one of the more stealthy disguises I saw from this game.
3rd & 8. Guess the coverage. RB and TE both check release. What's a good route to target?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Cover 2 Zone
Presnap look was man. Deep slant would be a good choice vs man. Warner gains depth to take it away.

Ryans reminds me a lot more of Fangio than Saleh.

This 49er defense is able to do a lot. I love that Ryans will change things up. This prevents the opposing offense from being able to go into a game knowing exactly what's coming.
What do you mean by Ryans reminds you more of Fangio? Is it the pattern match concepts? Like you mentioned above, that wasn't happening as much in 2021 because the CBs weren't as experienced/good. Perhaps it was Fangio being in the building this past offseason that has helped the 49ers incorporate more pattern matching, in addition to the improvement in CB talent.

Thats some of it, it's also the rotating safeties, holding a shell longer and determining the box safety off late offensive movement or sometimes even post snap movement, the disguise. Fangio loved to sit in a shell and then rotate into a cavalcade of zones. Saleh in the Seattle 3 system would always try and keep you guessing if it was their matching 3, spot drop 3 or 1man

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
it's getting to Alex smith level

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
There was a steady mix of Cover2 and Cover3 in the first two games, and vs DEN was more Cover4. Ryans mixes things up coverage wise throughout the course of a game, drive to drive. For a playcaller against this defense, it won't be easy to get a beat on what Ryans will dial up. This was one of the more stealthy disguises I saw from this game.
3rd & 8. Guess the coverage. RB and TE both check release. What's a good route to target?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Cover 2 Zone
Presnap look was man. Deep slant would be a good choice vs man. Warner gains depth to take it away.

Ryans reminds me a lot more of Fangio than Saleh.

This 49er defense is able to do a lot. I love that Ryans will change things up. This prevents the opposing offense from being able to go into a game knowing exactly what's coming.
What do you mean by Ryans reminds you more of Fangio? Is it the pattern match concepts? Like you mentioned above, that wasn't happening as much in 2021 because the CBs weren't as experienced/good. Perhaps it was Fangio being in the building this past offseason that has helped the 49ers incorporate more pattern matching, in addition to the improvement in CB talent.

what did he show up for? (Fangio)

Originally posted by Sanfran_chrisco:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:
There was a steady mix of Cover2 and Cover3 in the first two games, and vs DEN was more Cover4. Ryans mixes things up coverage wise throughout the course of a game, drive to drive. For a playcaller against this defense, it won't be easy to get a beat on what Ryans will dial up. This was one of the more stealthy disguises I saw from this game.
3rd & 8. Guess the coverage. RB and TE both check release. What's a good route to target?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Cover 2 Zone
Presnap look was man. Deep slant would be a good choice vs man. Warner gains depth to take it away.

+ Show all quotes
Ryans reminds me a lot more of Fangio than Saleh.

This 49er defense is able to do a lot. I love that Ryans will change things up. This prevents the opposing offense from being able to go into a game knowing exactly what's coming.
What do you mean by Ryans reminds you more of Fangio? Is it the pattern match concepts? Like you mentioned above, that wasn't happening as much in 2021 because the CBs weren't as experienced/good. Perhaps it was Fangio being in the building this past offseason that has helped the 49ers incorporate more pattern matching, in addition to the improvement in CB talent.

what did he show up for? (Fangio)

We dont know, they were mum about it but some reporters noted Fangio there during TC to observe

Originally posted by raywm3:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:
An elite offense in today's NFL needs to get explosives when it's just a "basic" play. Kyle has to scheme explosives because Jimmy creates these at a very low percentage. The last one I remember was Jimmy deep post to Deebo vs CHI last season. What I mean is on typical route plays, hit that deep throw. No QB hits them all, but a good QB needs to hit one or two over the course of a game and Jimmy wasn't able to. A defense that plays man-match can get confused and the 49ers had them confused on a couple plays - once Deebo ran wide open (Kittle and Deebo criss cross in trips bunch), once Aiyuk (safety on trips side rotated down; was a pass to Kittle deflected at line).

This is another (@16:12, slot fade with Aiyuk versus LB in man; just try it put it at the red star). Jimmy's best throw was wasted with the Jennings bobble.

Jimmy isn't the type of QB to flip a switch and it's game on. His lack of camp means he can't rely on timing, and coming back from an injury makes things worse. This was bottom of the sea level Jimmy so he should play better as he gets more time as starter in practice. I don't know why he treats so many passes as fadeaway jump shots. I'm not a QB guru either, but his lower body mechanics are bad, and he doesn't have the arm to make off platform throws past 15 yards. He needs to drive through when he's given the time and room to. But this is who he is at this point.

Shame that the offense clouds the defensive effort. All the chip blocking that the opposing offense is doing makes playing zone easier for the seven in coverage. DEN got some very fortunate bounces - two fumbles that bounced back to them, and a tipped ball high in the air that fell incomplete. Turnovers are luck but the chance for turnovers takes defensive skill. They come in bunches.
Thanks for the video. I don't always listen to in-video promos, but when there's a sack joke, I'm glad I did.

This is the s**t I've been saying for two yrs now! People act like the overall play calling is stagnant when in reality it isn't. Plays are there to be had, the QB has to take advantage of it. Lance would lack in certain areas early in his career, but I feel like we would hit more of these explosives this yr. It would open the field and playbook imo.

as far as his mechanics it's always been an issue imo. He throws with a lot of upper body torque, which is great for those quick pass plays "his quick release" but the lower body mechanics are a mess. He never steps into his throws and always looks like he's throwing off his back foot. He doesn't have the arm talent to do that type of stuff. It creates very inaccurate passes downfield and velocity is lacking.

I have said this no less than 100 times to everyone I know when I'm talking about Jimmy and it's refreshing to see that someone else sees it too because I never hear it talked about. I'm a Jimmy supporter but his accuracy sometimes is a direct result of this and it drives me nuts

Not to bust your balls, but pretty much every non-Jimmy fanboi here has mentioned this at one time or another (and some of the fanboiz have as well). And for the record, he did it in 2017 as well, and it led to down the field inaccuracy then too.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Apparently, Jimmy is the worse QB in the league when facing disguised coverages. Probably trusts his pre snap read way too often and fails to adjust accordingly.

Been saying it for years: he doesn't really read defenses post-snap, or doesn't look at defenses like he should. Felt nice when Hall of Famer Kurt Warner pointed this out last year. No fanboi can claim Kurt Warner doesn't know what he's talking about.

Also, in a hysterical irony, Grant Cohn has also said this for years, so we have people wrong where Grant Cohn is right.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by Waterbear:
I don't understand why Aiyuk losing his route matters in the context of the play where Jimmy missed Deebo running down the right sidelines.

Jimmy initially looked to his right (off his primary receiver?) to the trips receiver side and then looked left and threw to Aiyuk with the safety crashing down.

He didn't read the safety. He didn't see Deebo wide open even though he was looking right at him. But the play failed because Aiyuk didn't win his route?

I mean… even the pass behind Deebo was apparently not Jimmy's fault either. Because why? Jimmy was under pressure? QBs can still make that play happen around the league. Idk why it's not fair to say Jimmy should have made those.

All of last season I was told that Trey shouldn't get any reps because Jimmy's much better at reading defenses. I really don't think that's true at all. He just has a much more repeatable throwing motion, a very quick release, and many more years of experience. But his footwork and pocket movement has been dreadful over the years. It's almost like he compensates for his lack of mobility by throwing off his back foot and utilizing that release, so he doesn't actively practice the footwork necessary to throw deep. He gets lazy with his footwork and lazy with his eyes way too often IMO.

Because, just because Jimmy has a bad rep, doesn't excuse Aiyuk having a bad rep too. If Aiyuk has a good rep, it's still a first down, we move and score points. If Jimmy has a good rep we score points - both plays are negatives. If either one are positive, we score points. Spotlighting Jimmy isn't wrong, but it absolves Aiyuk of responsibility.

I just had this convo with John Chapman on his show - my point is, Aiyuk is a 25th overall pick in his 3rd year and there were many times when he was in 1v1 coverage with Surtain, we wanted to get him the ball and he didn't create much separation, if any. He was a first round WR. He needs to be in that conversation with Jaylen Waddle, Mike Evans, Davante Adams, Davonte Smith - guys who their ability to defeat man-cov in a ton of ways - slants, quick outs, corner routes, stop routes, sluggo's, basic, unders all sorts of routes, that it forces a DC to change the way they're going to play defense. Aiyuk is a good player right now. We need him to be that X receiver and force defenses to double him.

The difference here is that Jimmy's mistake cost us a touchdown.

EDIT-- saw that you have basically acknowledged this later down the thread. Disregard this comment.