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Who holds this offense back more?

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Who holds this offense back more?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GetSomeRouteRunners:
Saying the problem is "execution" doesn't absolve Shanahan. He's a head coach, not just a play caller. It's his responsibility to get the players to execute. It's not just one or two guys. It's the whole offense.

"Execution" is the problem.

It's the low hanging fruit. If execution is always the problem, call plays they can execute. Or coach them up to execute.

You can say this is the issue on every play called in history that doesn't score.

Do you think Shanahan should be more Walsh-esque and rip the heads off of assistants? NGL, it's been extremely frustrating to see a lot of big plays get wiped off the board from drops. It's been everyone. Deebo, Aiyuk, Kittle, Jennings, McCloud, Woerner.

I have a hard time believing Shanahan wouldn't harp on and coach execution with his offense. At what point do you say the guys just need to make simple plays? Why are our guys dropping so many passes they should catch? I mean, Kyle puts them in position to make plays but he can't make the ball stick to their hands.

TBH, from what I've seen lately, the 3 most common issues I've seen pop up on offense have been:

1. McGlinchey missing blocks
2. Guys dropping balls
3. Jimmy not seeing or choosing to not take the big-play shot.

I would argue 1/3 are talent/ability related issues. The 2nd I'd put more on execution AND/OR the position coaches who were delegated the responsibility to prepare these guys. Yeah, KS is over the whole team, I get that. But blaming him for everything seems like the easy cop out. I see no reason to believe he doesn't know what he's doing.

IMHO, it's culture. A culture with a lack of details, focus and accountability.

I say culture because we see the same themes every game, every year, of shooting ourselves in the foot with penalties, drops, slow starts and rash of injuries to start the season. And like you say, it's ALL of them. It's not just the rookies.

But to your point, it's still inexcusable from the players either way.

The second half of that culture is the team having its back against the wall, calling a players-only meeting and playing better afterwards.

I think that culture exists because Kyle's focus is more on game planning (his choice) and administration (esp. this year with all new staff).

I mean, we started what, 8-0 in 2019? We seemed to execute fine then. 2020 we were playing with backups everywhere pretty much all year so there's no much else to say about that. Last year our defense and running game was strong, but the majority of the games we lost that we should've won often were ones where Jimmy made some mind-numbingly awful plays that cost us the game. That's not to say there were never times where our other guys effed up an otherwise good game from Jimmy (against Arizona is one in particular I can think of). Anyways.. if he was elite, his injury would've been a risk teams were more willing to take as far as a trade, but then again, if he was elite, we wouldn't be trying to replace him either. So it's not just people in house that see Jimmy as a weak spot, it's people outside the org that do too. We know the talking heads have said what they've said too.. but that's another thing..

This is really the first year in a while where we've seen more frequent execution issues from a variety of different guys each week. You mentioned the new staff -- and you might be onto something there. Maybe that has a huge part to do with it, players adjusting to new coaching. Would it be the same regardless of who KS hired on staff? You could argue yes. But it's an interesting question.. Again I go back to the question of, does Kyle need to lay the hammer down on his assistants? I mean, it's not like they have nothing to do with the players' performance.

I've been especially disappointed with STs. We all thought STs was going to be so much better, and it's been just as bad, if not worse.
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Lipstick on a pig that he signed for $137m. Straight genius.

Hindsight that contract was a mistake. Don't you agree?

We weren't going to allow him to finish the contract and we drafted a 1st Rd QB in the middle of it so that's been answered already.
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by GetSomeRouteRunners:
Originally posted by random49er:
I mean look @ how much we celebrate a pinpoint pass on his roll out this last week,....lol. It's because we're just not used to seeing it from him.

A # of other teams, they say good throw and move forward while we highlight it like it's the most amazing thing. We're engrained to expect less,...amazing talent on deck or not.

49er fans for 20 years: "The WCO is about short, timing passes, and receivers gaining yards after the catch. Who cares if Montana and Young have weak arms and are surrounded by Pro Bowlers? They're smart and accurate and hit receivers in stride so they can run after the catch. Montana is GOAT."

49er fans now: "Who cares if Jimmy has been top 10 in passer rating all 3 healthy years since he has been here, and was 2nd in yards per pass attempt last year (and led the NFL in yards per completion) and 3rd in yards per pass attempt in 2019? Who cares if the team scored 479 points in 2019 with Jimmy, which was 2nd in the NFL? He has a weak arm and only throws short passes and is surrounded by Pro Bowlers! We need a division 1-AA power back who played 1 year of college football to come in and let it rip deep! Him leading the team to 10 points against the Bears this year on 5.9 yards per pass attempt showed what kind of amazing talent he is!"

Also, we could be celebrating him threading the needle to Aiyuk on that comeback on 3rd and long, but the fact that Aiyuk, like all of our receivers other than Jennings, sucks on out-breaking routes, sailed over anti-Jimmy fans' heads. Just like they whined about that INT Jimmy threw against the Colts that deflected off Deebo last year, making no observation of the fact that Deebo's a bad route runner.

Originally posted by random49er:
As you put it in your reintroduction here,..."I guess Steve Young just doesn't know football."

Appeal to authority is a fallacy. In this case, you're appealing to an authority who had so many concussions he had to retire from football because of them.

This guy knows!

Lol he lasted 2 days. Back to TreyDey.
[ Edited by random49er on Nov 19, 2022 at 10:32 AM ]
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
The battle of our time



VS



Lol these things are synonymous. Hope u aren't serious.

Jimmy's not a student of the game. He's a guy u give a play script to and let him perfect it for a week.

If you are rolling,...great. If you are behind,...you're likely in trouble. He's never shown that he can be trusted fully with the offense and both stats above are evidence of such.
[ Edited by random49er on Nov 19, 2022 at 10:40 AM ]
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
I look at it this way...

I don't blame JG for not being Allen / Mahomes. He's not that guy. He is maximizing who he is in this league.

KS isn't maximizing our QB room. I can think of like 15 better QB rooms. KS can do better at putting together the QB room. JG can't do better he's maxed out. This is my view.

Doesn't maximize it at all....which is what drives people nuts.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GetSomeRouteRunners:
Saying the problem is "execution" doesn't absolve Shanahan. He's a head coach, not just a play caller. It's his responsibility to get the players to execute. It's not just one or two guys. It's the whole offense.

"Execution" is the problem.

It's the low hanging fruit. If execution is always the problem, call plays they can execute. Or coach them up to execute.

You can say this is the issue on every play called in history that doesn't score.

Do you think Shanahan should be more Walsh-esque and rip the heads off of assistants? NGL, it's been extremely frustrating to see a lot of big plays get wiped off the board from drops. It's been everyone. Deebo, Aiyuk, Kittle, Jennings, McCloud, Woerner.

I have a hard time believing Shanahan wouldn't harp on and coach execution with his offense. At what point do you say the guys just need to make simple plays? Why are our guys dropping so many passes they should catch? I mean, Kyle puts them in position to make plays but he can't make the ball stick to their hands.

TBH, from what I've seen lately, the 3 most common issues I've seen pop up on offense have been:

1. McGlinchey missing blocks
2. Guys dropping balls
3. Jimmy not seeing or choosing to not take the big-play shot.

I would argue 1/3 are talent/ability related issues. The 2nd I'd put more on execution AND/OR the position coaches who were delegated the responsibility to prepare these guys. Yeah, KS is over the whole team, I get that. But blaming him for everything seems like the easy cop out. I see no reason to believe he doesn't know what he's doing.

IMHO, it's culture. A culture with a lack of details, focus and accountability.

I say culture because we see the same themes every game, every year, of shooting ourselves in the foot with penalties, drops, slow starts and rash of injuries to start the season. And like you say, it's ALL of them. It's not just the rookies.

But to your point, it's still inexcusable from the players either way.

The second half of that culture is the team having its back against the wall, calling a players-only meeting and playing better afterwards.

I think that culture exists because Kyle's focus is more on game planning (his choice) and administration (esp. this year with all new staff).

I mean, we started what, 8-0 in 2019? We seemed to execute fine then. 2020 we were playing with backups everywhere pretty much all year so there's no much else to say about that. Last year our defense and running game was strong, but the majority of the games we lost that we should've won often were ones where Jimmy made some mind-numbingly awful plays that cost us the game. That's not to say there were never times where our other guys effed up an otherwise good game from Jimmy (against Arizona is one in particular I can think of). Anyways.. if he was elite, his injury would've been a risk teams were more willing to take as far as a trade, but then again, if he was elite, we wouldn't be trying to replace him either. So it's not just people in house that see Jimmy as a weak spot, it's people outside the org that do too. We know the talking heads have said what they've said too.. but that's another thing..

This is really the first year in a while where we've seen more frequent execution issues from a variety of different guys each week. You mentioned the new staff -- and you might be onto something there. Maybe that has a huge part to do with it, players adjusting to new coaching. Would it be the same regardless of who KS hired on staff? You could argue yes. But it's an interesting question.. Again I go back to the question of, does Kyle need to lay the hammer down on his assistants? I mean, it's not like they have nothing to do with the players' performance.

I've been especially disappointed with STs. We all thought STs was going to be so much better, and it's been just as bad, if not worse.

You don't think these issues have been an annual theme for us? And yes, you can still win inspite of them.

I say culture because we see the same themes every game, every year, of shooting ourselves in the foot with penalties, drops, slow starts and rash of injuries to start the season.

Yeah, the massive coaching turnover was really overlooked. It, and the list above was why I thought we would be a 9-8 team even with all our talent.

Naturally, Jimmy is both Good Jimmy and Bad Jimmy. He always will be, IMHO. But I see Good Kyle and Bad Kyle just the same. And that's far more concerning to me going forward. Jimmy is temporary.

Special Teams? Seriously. I'm really surprised we haven't seen a big uptick here. And still not one trick play. Conservative.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 19, 2022 at 11:07 AM ]
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
The battle of our time



VS


If Jimmy is 10-2 when he can't find the end zone, that's a testament to how great the rest of the team is and how well it's coached. I can't f**king wait to have a QB that can find the end zone!
Originally posted by NotAFinga42:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
The battle of our time



VS


If Jimmy is 10-2 when he can't find the end zone, that's a testament to how great the rest of the team is and how well it's coached. I can't f**king wait to have a QB that can find the end zone!

And just a run centric offense that was going against the pass centric league. When you can win a playoff game without virtually passing, that tells you all you need to know.

Now you're seeing the trend flip. This is the most rushing yards we've seen in history league-wise and passing is at an all time low (per the WZ podcast/NFLN/Dan Orlovsky). I'm paraphrasing (may be off a tad) but you get the premise.

Kyle moved to an explosive OZ scheme to an IZ/gap scheme all in between the tackles. That's like going from Mike Shanahan to Jim Harbaugh in philosophy.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 19, 2022 at 11:19 AM ]
Originally posted by NotAFinga42:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
The battle of our time



VS


If Jimmy is 10-2 when he can't find the end zone, that's a testament to how great the rest of the team is and how well it's coached. I can't f**king wait to have a QB that can find the end zone!

Technically, Jimmy did find the endzone last game
Originally posted by NCommand:
And just a run centric offense that was going against the pass centric league. When you can win a playoff game without virtually passing, that tells you all you need to know.

Now you're seeing the trend flip. This is the most rushing yards we've seen in history league-wise and passing is at an all time low (per the WZ podcast/NFLN/Dan Orlovsky). I'm paraphrasing (may be off a tad) but you get the premise.

Kyle moved to an explosive OZ scheme to an IZ/gap scheme all in between the tackles. That's like going from Mike Shanahan to Jim Harbaugh in philosophy.

The 10-2 record isin't highlighting anything that's run-centric. It does highlight Jimmy's general inability to hit guys down the field in stride for TDs,...as well as the problems he has on condensed fields.

These 2 areas take away from his TD numbers year after year.
For a real poll include McG and Trey Lance that would be something
No one held back tonight!
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
For a real poll include McG and Trey Lance that would be something

Why would you include a guy who isn't even playing due to injury?

McG and the rest of the o-line gave up 0 sacks tonight btw.
Originally posted by 49ersRing:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
For a real poll include McG and Trey Lance that would be something

Why would you include a guy who isn't even playing due to injury?

McG and the rest of the o-line gave up 0 sacks tonight btw.

Let the people decide! Add this thread to the poll. Does this thread hold the WZ back?
A healthy Mitchell and McCaffrey make this offense pretty scary. Plus splitting carries spreads out the injury risk. Everything trending up except the secondary.
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