week 10 vs LA Chargers Coaches Film Analysis

I think it's a fair question that if one botched block can stop a run at the LOS and players take turns botching the play, then perhaps the plays designed should allow for a missed block but still make at least a few yards. Otherwise, it seems that an OL with three players starting for the first time, it's a little too optimistic to expect a smooth-running offense.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Only if it results in the points. And wins. All it says is you're moving the ball with the pass at an efficient rate higher than anybody. Not the volume of opportunities you're creating for scoring. It means it's a strength. It doesn't guarantee closing the deal.

The scoring and wins has more to do with execution. Jonny showed all the blocks that were missed. There isn't a magic schematic change that fixes all that. It's execution.

Jonny is reaching on his latest video imo.



There was no guarantee the first example would have been a TD... there was a safety that could have took a good angle on Mitchell, who although quick... doesn't have Mostert type of breakaway speed.

Yeah the Deebo one could have been a TD.

I mean don't missed blocks on running plays by linemen, TE, FBs happen to every team? Plays that could be potential TDs or big plays? Doesn't it happen multiple times a game?

Why do we need our running game to score 70yard TDs, for us to put up points with all our weapons on offense? Why is that considered our main issue?

We have Deebo Samuel, Aiyuk, Kittle, CMC for our passing game... ALL HEALTHY!!!! I don't expect our passing game to look like the Kurt Warner's Rams....but God Lee we have some weapons... we shouldn't have to rely on the running game to get 70 yard tds.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I would rather have a negative 3 yards on a 1st down run than an 8 yard sack. But maybe that is just me.

That's fair. Plus the holding penalty is 10 yards. That's stupid brutal. False start. We specialize in both (26 through 9 games).

Holding is called on both run and pass plays and so are false starts.

True. Illegal shifts/motions. Delay of game. Now I'm curious which would get called more. More penalties in run/pass? We'd be an interesting case study given we're as close to 50/50 as it gets.

I think you are just grasping at straws at this point. I am not saying we should run it 100% of the time on first down. Obviously we should be looking for a more balanced attack on 1st down since it is a neutral down as far as run and pass are concerned. I just had no issue with the run heavy gameplan against the worste run defense in the NFL. Did it work out in our favor in the first half? No. But we made up for it in the second half and dominated TOP and out gained the opponent by 150 yards.

Bingo. And be willing to shift if you see how a DC is hyper focused on stopping the run rather than just ride and die with the plan.

Kyle's First Down Run ratio

2022 - 37.8%
2021 - 34.9%
2020 - 28.9%
2019 - 36.0%
2018 - 28.4%
2017 - 27.1%

Kyle is a throw lean on first down and has been his entire tenure as an NFL playcaller

That's 8th most. That makes it still very predictable overall.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-first-down-pct

No....No it doesn't.

It sure did Sunday. It's no secret Kyle loves to run on first downs esp. when he's got a run centric game plan.

It's almost like they were playing one of the worst run defenses in the league and his defense was playing well enough to allow him to stick with the run. Ground game seem to pick up steam as the game went on. Weird.

What does that have to do with Kyle being more predictable on first downs with his tendency?

3.8ypc even after losing their two IDT. We were lucky to win that one. Made it about as hard as we could on ourselves.

How is doing something 38% of the time being predictable. This year the league spread of running on first ranges from 56% to 22% That's a 34% spread between the most and least. 38% actually puts Kyle's playcalling on first kinda puts him right in the middle of this spread.....16% over the least and 18% under the most.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

?
I'm not sure where this is coming from. Teams that run primarily zone-run are:
KC
CHI
DEN
GB
LA
LA
SF
CAR
PHI
DAL
ATL
DET
NE
MIA
NYJ
SEA
ARI
JAX

Then there's 50/50 kind of teams
BUF
WAS
TB
NYG

The wide-zone has been sweeping through the league again since Kyle was in ATL

I have a real hard time with, "the scheme is too complicated".

jd, it's not good enough to just call it 'zone run scheme'. The 49ers have gone away from being so outside zone dominant to incorporating more inside zone. This is due to more 2 high safety defenses, and five man fronts that are making a comeback. A better breakdown is how many teams still are heavy on outside zone. I don't watch enough other teams to know. I'd also bucket the 49ers into 50/50, but I can't quantify.

Mmm, well most wide-zone runs can get run inside.

Either way any zone-baseed scheme require guys to execute reach blocks, reads of the defense.
Alex Gibbs didn't treat technique in wide-zone and inside zone all that different. Just where is your initial target line.

The issue people are having isn't the target point but the complexity

An outside zone run that results in the RB hitting the B gap (inside) is still an outside zone run. I may have lost context of the discussion above. Anyway, I agree zone blocking isn't some complicated scheme because it's been around for a long time and many teams do it. So it isn't any more complicated than a gap scheme. To dumb it down, I'd say zone scheme takes more chemistry between the OLmen for combo blocks, whereas gap scheme requires bad ass OLmen to dominate their 1v1 blocks.

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
I think it's a fair question that if one botched block can stop a run at the LOS and players take turns botching the play, then perhaps the plays designed should allow for a missed block but still make at least a few yards. Otherwise, it seems that an OL with three players starting for the first time, it's a little too optimistic to expect a smooth-running offense.

What offense has missed blocks that still result in 3 or 4 yard gains that isn't the running back making something out of nothing?

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Only if it results in the points. And wins. All it says is you're moving the ball with the pass at an efficient rate higher than anybody. Not the volume of opportunities you're creating for scoring. It means it's a strength. It doesn't guarantee closing the deal.

The scoring and wins has more to do with execution. Jonny showed all the blocks that were missed. There isn't a magic schematic change that fixes all that. It's execution.

Never questioned execution. Any play ever designed that doesn't score every time can be blamed on execution. Literally.

Nobody is denying the wrong angle by Banks, missed block by Deebo, Williams getting blown back, etc. corrected could have been huge! You should probably expect a dozen a game on average of those.

Our RZ improvement would go a long ways in helping all of these discussions. That's where the real play calling and execution magnifies.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Wubbie:
Agreed. It's why I asked Jonny earlier in the thread if we really did change anything up in our offense. Seems like we didn't. Largely, the offense was still the same.

Our identity is not going to change. We're still trying to run the ball. Our passing offense will feature crossers, screens, slants, misdirection, play action passes. I think the biggest thing that CMC brings now is gravity, where he'll draw the defense's gaze and that opens things up.

It's up to Jimmy to make those reads and the throw. And largely, to his credit, he has and has been doing a great job.

When you are the #1 passing DVOA there isn't anything you really need to change. What that should tell you is you just need to focus on executing what you are doing more consistently. Thats the key.

Only if it results in the points. And wins. All it says is you're moving the ball with the pass at an efficient rate higher than anybody. Not the volume of opportunities you're creating for scoring. It means it's a strength. It doesn't guarantee closing the deal.

I want to say this:

Move-the-ball situations: We're starting to show real life here. The offense is picking up in the last few weeks. The next step is to get more explosive plays, but this is not a problem.

Red Zone Scoring TD%: 2/5 in this game. Last I checked, we're middle of the pack. This has to be better. Especially because the defense can't key in on any one player.

I vaguely remember watching Alex Smith's Chiefs a few years ago against Tom Brady's Patriots. It felt like Alex and the Chiefs were game, but when they kicked field goals… Tom Brady got touchdowns and that was the difference between two playoff teams.

4th Quarter 4 Minute Offense: I think this is a big question… Trust your offense or your defense to close out the game?

Should Shanahan trust Jimmy to throw (safe) passes when we have a lead and are trying to run some clock? Because, yes, against the Chargers, we settled for a field goal to make it a 6 point game, but some would argue that being more aggressive and getting the TD would put the game on ice. Against the Chargers, settling for the field goal worked out. And in hindsight, it made a lot of sense because of how great the defense was playing… but offensive aggressions in the fourth quarter with a lead is a question, since we've lost two tough games to the Chiefs in the SB, and the Rams in the NFCCG.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I would rather have a negative 3 yards on a 1st down run than an 8 yard sack. But maybe that is just me.

That's fair. Plus the holding penalty is 10 yards. That's stupid brutal. False start. We specialize in both (26 through 9 games).

Holding is called on both run and pass plays and so are false starts.

True. Illegal shifts/motions. Delay of game. Now I'm curious which would get called more. More penalties in run/pass? We'd be an interesting case study given we're as close to 50/50 as it gets.

I think you are just grasping at straws at this point. I am not saying we should run it 100% of the time on first down. Obviously we should be looking for a more balanced attack on 1st down since it is a neutral down as far as run and pass are concerned. I just had no issue with the run heavy gameplan against the worste run defense in the NFL. Did it work out in our favor in the first half? No. But we made up for it in the second half and dominated TOP and out gained the opponent by 150 yards.

Bingo. And be willing to shift if you see how a DC is hyper focused on stopping the run rather than just ride and die with the plan.

Kyle's First Down Run ratio

2022 - 37.8%
2021 - 34.9%
2020 - 28.9%
2019 - 36.0%
2018 - 28.4%
2017 - 27.1%

Kyle is a throw lean on first down and has been his entire tenure as an NFL playcaller

That's 8th most. That makes it still very predictable overall.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-first-down-pct

No....No it doesn't.

It sure did Sunday. It's no secret Kyle loves to run on first downs esp. when he's got a run centric game plan.

It's almost like they were playing one of the worst run defenses in the league and his defense was playing well enough to allow him to stick with the run. Ground game seem to pick up steam as the game went on. Weird.

What does that have to do with Kyle being more predictable on first downs with his tendency?

3.8ypc even after losing their two IDT. We were lucky to win that one. Made it about as hard as we could on ourselves.

How is doing something 38% of the time being predictable. This year the league spread of running on first ranges from 56% to 22% That's a 34% spread between the most and least. 38% actually puts Kyle's playcalling on first kinda puts him right in the middle of this spread.....16% over the least and 18% under the most.

Everyone in the world knows Kyle loves to run on first downs. Everyone in the world knows he's going to first try and establish the run. That makes it a bit easier for a DC to guard against.

It's the very reason Lombardi is tracking how we've had more success coming out passing vs. run to set up the pass.

Zig when they think you'll zag.

Originally posted by Wubbie:
I want to say this:

Move-the-ball situations: We're starting to show real life here. The offense is picking up in the last few weeks. The next step is to get more explosive plays, but this is not a problem.

Red Zone Scoring TD%: 2/5 in this game. Last I checked, we're middle of the pack. This has to be better. Especially because the defense can't key in on any one player.

I vaguely remember watching Alex Smith's Chiefs a few years ago against Tom Brady's Patriots. It felt like Alex and the Chiefs were game, but when they kicked field goals… Tom Brady got touchdowns and that was the difference between two playoff teams.

4th Quarter 4 Minute Offense: I think this is a big question… Trust your offense or your defense to close out the game?

Should Shanahan trust Jimmy to throw (safe) passes when we have a lead and are trying to run some clock? Because, yes, against the Chargers, we settled for a field goal to make it a 6 point game, but some would argue that being more aggressive and getting the TD would put the game on ice. Against the Chargers, settling for the field goal worked out. And in hindsight, it made a lot of sense because of how great the defense was playing… but offensive aggressions in the fourth quarter with a lead is a question, since we've lost two tough games to the Chiefs in the SB, and the Rams in the NFCCG.

Aggressiveness can very easily go the other way as the Bills have proven the last two weeks. At least Bills fans are smart enough to not blame Dorsey for the bad decision making going on.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
I think it's a fair question that if one botched block can stop a run at the LOS and players take turns botching the play, then perhaps the plays designed should allow for a missed block but still make at least a few yards. Otherwise, it seems that an OL with three players starting for the first time, it's a little too optimistic to expect a smooth-running offense.

What offense has missed blocks that still result in 3 or 4 yard gains that isn't the running back making something out of nothing?

One possibility would be plays that emphasize blocking all the DL and LBs (perhaps with double-teaming) while leaving the DBs unblocked. This would increase the number of short to mid gains while allowing the RB into the secondary and possibly breaks tackles there.

Originally posted by Wubbie:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Wubbie:
Agreed. It's why I asked Jonny earlier in the thread if we really did change anything up in our offense. Seems like we didn't. Largely, the offense was still the same.

Our identity is not going to change. We're still trying to run the ball. Our passing offense will feature crossers, screens, slants, misdirection, play action passes. I think the biggest thing that CMC brings now is gravity, where he'll draw the defense's gaze and that opens things up.

It's up to Jimmy to make those reads and the throw. And largely, to his credit, he has and has been doing a great job.

When you are the #1 passing DVOA there isn't anything you really need to change. What that should tell you is you just need to focus on executing what you are doing more consistently. Thats the key.

Only if it results in the points. And wins. All it says is you're moving the ball with the pass at an efficient rate higher than anybody. Not the volume of opportunities you're creating for scoring. It means it's a strength. It doesn't guarantee closing the deal.

I want to say this:

Move-the-ball situations: We're starting to show real life here. The offense is picking up in the last few weeks. The next step is to get more explosive plays, but this is not a problem.

Red Zone Scoring TD%: 2/5 in this game. Last I checked, we're middle of the pack. This has to be better. Especially because the defense can't key in on any one player.

I vaguely remember watching Alex Smith's Chiefs a few years ago against Tom Brady's Patriots. It felt like Alex and the Chiefs were game, but when they kicked field goals… Tom Brady got touchdowns and that was the difference between two playoff teams.

4th Quarter 4 Minute Offense: I think this is a big question… Trust your offense or your defense to close out the game?

Should Shanahan trust Jimmy to throw (safe) passes when we have a lead and are trying to run some clock? Because, yes, against the Chargers, we settled for a field goal to make it a 6 point game, but some would argue that being more aggressive and getting the TD would put the game on ice. Against the Chargers, settling for the field goal worked out. And in hindsight, it made a lot of sense because of how great the defense was playing… but offensive aggressions in the fourth quarter with a lead is a question, since we've lost two tough games to the Chiefs in the SB, and the Rams in the NFCCG.

Great stuff. Maiocco noted all last year we had the best 4 minute offense in football (closing out the first half and game). Plus #1 in the RZ last year (a result of that). I think we did really good coming out of the half too. This 'might' be an area Kyle misses McDaniels collaboration?

Yeah, those decisions are tough. I think now that we finally have a really solid pass protection unit, it couldn't hurt to try it out now.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Everyone in the world knows Kyle loves to run on first downs. Everyone in the world knows he's going to first try and establish the run. That makes it a bit easier for a DC to guard against.

It's the very reason Lombardi is tracking how we've had more success coming out passing vs. run to set up the pass.

Zig when they think you'll zag.

I've seen games where we come out passing instead of running. To me, it really depends on the chess match between Kyle and the opposing DC on how he wants to attack. That's going to vary.

But what I do wonder about is 4th quarter situations where we have a lead and how Shanahan chooses to manage that.

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
One possibility would be plays that emphasize blocking all the DL and LBs (perhaps with double-teaming) while leaving the DBs unblocked. This would increase the number of short to mid gains while allowing the RB into the secondary and possibly breaks tackles there.

Leaving a DB unblocked isn't a missed block if it's by design. You said missed blocks.

9ers do have runs where they leave guys unblocked. I remember Mostert scoring a TD against the Packers in the NFC title game on one such run.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Wubbie:
I want to say this:

Move-the-ball situations: We're starting to show real life here. The offense is picking up in the last few weeks. The next step is to get more explosive plays, but this is not a problem.

Red Zone Scoring TD%: 2/5 in this game. Last I checked, we're middle of the pack. This has to be better. Especially because the defense can't key in on any one player.

I vaguely remember watching Alex Smith's Chiefs a few years ago against Tom Brady's Patriots. It felt like Alex and the Chiefs were game, but when they kicked field goals… Tom Brady got touchdowns and that was the difference between two playoff teams.

4th Quarter 4 Minute Offense: I think this is a big question… Trust your offense or your defense to close out the game?

Should Shanahan trust Jimmy to throw (safe) passes when we have a lead and are trying to run some clock? Because, yes, against the Chargers, we settled for a field goal to make it a 6 point game, but some would argue that being more aggressive and getting the TD would put the game on ice. Against the Chargers, settling for the field goal worked out. And in hindsight, it made a lot of sense because of how great the defense was playing… but offensive aggressions in the fourth quarter with a lead is a question, since we've lost two tough games to the Chiefs in the SB, and the Rams in the NFCCG.

Aggressiveness can very easily go the other way as the Bills have proven the last two weeks. At least Bills fans are smart enough to not blame Dorsey for the bad decision making going on.

Agreed. Like, how would 49er fans feel if Jimmy threw an INT or fumbled when we're in a Goal-To-Go situation?

I vaguely remember the Falcons/Patriots Super Bowl. In that situation, didn't they opt to pass and then took a sack that took them out of field goal range?