week 10 vs LA Chargers Coaches Film Analysis

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

How is this so different than passing plays? Is McG blows a pass block, the play has a big chance of failing. If all the players execute, but Aiyuk has the pass doink off his shoulder, that's a failed play. If everyone executes a good playcall, but the QB misses the read or butchers the throw, that's a failed play. The main player that makes potential failed pass plays look successful is the QB. I'm sure there have been situations where it's a poor playcall versus the coverage, or failed pass block but the QB uses his ability to be a playmaker and makes the coach look good.

Using that same analogy for run plays, if Brendl blows a block, a run play with the potential for a chunk gain is just a short gain. On a running play, the player that makes potential failed run plays look successful is the RB.

Execution is always important whether it be run play or pass play. There is one equalizer in all this, and it's having a player that makes something awesome out of nothing. I would not put Jimmy in that category. I would put Eli/CMC in that category. (yes, I saw the throw to RayRay)

Aside from the league favoring the pass (clearly) in penalties alone, the difference in an explosive in a pass vs. run is a run needs to funnel not only through our whole OL, but their DL and it requires all our receivers blocking down the rest as well. The odds of one piece not hitting is very high. In a pass, especially with our 2.62s TT is it's shorter, safer and our YAC specialists just need to break one tackle for it to become an explosive. Not that we haven't seen fails there too but it's just a whole lot easier to get explosives with a pass these days. And they don't need to be low % plays either to get them.

Okay you are referring to explosives. To that, I think that the main factor - not only factor, main factor - in this 2022 offense not getting more explosives in the passing game is due to Jimmy not seeing/attempting the throws necessary to make it happen. If your counter is that there is no need to throw it downfield 15 yards, just throw slants and screens then have the YAC Bros do the rest, then I understand your point in wanting to throw more. For this LAC game, LAC is better defending the pass than stopping the run so that may have played a factor in the gameplan.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by a49erfan77:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

How is this so different than passing plays? Is McG blows a pass block, the play has a big chance of failing. If all the players execute, but Aiyuk has the pass doink off his shoulder, that's a failed play. If everyone executes a good playcall, but the QB misses the read or butchers the throw, that's a failed play. The main player that makes potential failed pass plays look successful is the QB. I'm sure there have been situations where it's a poor playcall versus the coverage, or failed pass block but the QB uses his ability to be a playmaker and makes the coach look good.

Using that same analogy for run plays, if Brendl blows a block, a run play with the potential for a chunk gain is just a short gain. On a running play, the player that makes potential failed run plays look successful is the RB.

Execution is always important whether it be run play or pass play. There is one equalizer in all this, and it's having a player that makes something awesome out of nothing. I would not put Jimmy in that category. I would put Eli/CMC in that category. (yes, I saw the throw to RayRay)

I think the argument here is that passing plays in general are less complex and harder to screw up than complicated zone run plays.

Is that true? I didn't know that.

Yeeeeah. That don't sound right.

Look at the analytics. Sack rates, drop rates, pick rates. The vast majority of big, negative plays happen on passing plays. When you have a great defense, if you don't turn the ball over, you have a huge chance to win.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I would rather have a negative 3 yards on a 1st down run than an 8 yard sack. But maybe that is just me.

That's fair. Plus the holding penalty is 10 yards. That's stupid brutal. False start. We specialize in both (26 through 9 games).

Holding is called on both run and pass plays and so are false starts.

True. Illegal shifts/motions. Delay of game. Now I'm curious which would get called more. More penalties in run/pass? We'd be an interesting case study given we're as close to 50/50 as it gets.

I think you are just grasping at straws at this point. I am not saying we should run it 100% of the time on first down. Obviously we should be looking for a more balanced attack on 1st down since it is a neutral down as far as run and pass are concerned. I just had no issue with the run heavy gameplan against the worste run defense in the NFL. Did it work out in our favor in the first half? No. But we made up for it in the second half and dominated TOP and out gained the opponent by 150 yards.

Bingo. And be willing to shift if you see how a DC is hyper focused on stopping the run rather than just ride and die with the plan.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

?
I'm not sure where this is coming from. Teams that run primarily zone-run are:
KC
CHI
DEN
GB
LA
LA
SF
CAR
PHI
DAL
ATL
DET
NE
MIA
NYJ
SEA
ARI
JAX

Then there's 50/50 kind of teams
BUF
WAS
TB
NYG

The wide-zone has been sweeping through the league again since Kyle was in ATL

I have a real hard time with, "the scheme is too complicated".

jd, it's not good enough to just call it 'zone run scheme'. The 49ers have gone away from being so outside zone dominant to incorporating more inside zone. This is due to more 2 high safety defenses, and five man fronts that are making a comeback. A better breakdown is how many teams still are heavy on outside zone. I don't watch enough other teams to know. I'd also bucket the 49ers into 50/50, but I can't quantify.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

How is this so different than passing plays? Is McG blows a pass block, the play has a big chance of failing. If all the players execute, but Aiyuk has the pass doink off his shoulder, that's a failed play. If everyone executes a good playcall, but the QB misses the read or butchers the throw, that's a failed play. The main player that makes potential failed pass plays look successful is the QB. I'm sure there have been situations where it's a poor playcall versus the coverage, or failed pass block but the QB uses his ability to be a playmaker and makes the coach look good.

Using that same analogy for run plays, if Brendl blows a block, a run play with the potential for a chunk gain is just a short gain. On a running play, the player that makes potential failed run plays look successful is the RB.

Execution is always important whether it be run play or pass play. There is one equalizer in all this, and it's having a player that makes something awesome out of nothing. I would not put Jimmy in that category. I would put Eli/CMC in that category. (yes, I saw the throw to RayRay)

Aside from the league favoring the pass (clearly) in penalties alone, the difference in an explosive in a pass vs. run is a run needs to funnel not only through our whole OL, but their DL and it requires all our receivers blocking down the rest as well. The odds of one piece not hitting is very high. In a pass, especially with our 2.62s TT is it's shorter, safer and our YAC specialists just need to break one tackle for it to become an explosive. Not that we haven't seen fails there too but it's just a whole lot easier to get explosives with a pass these days. And they don't need to be low % plays either to get them.

Okay you are referring to explosives. To that, I think that the main factor - not only factor, main factor - in this 2022 offense not getting more explosives in the passing game is due to Jimmy not seeing/attempting the throws necessary to make it happen. If your counter is that there is no need to throw it downfield 15 yards, just throw slants and screens then have the YAC Bros do the rest, then I understand your point in wanting to throw more. For this LAC game, LAC is better defending the pass than stopping the run so that may have played a factor in the gameplan.

Totally. Under 10 yards. I believe Jimmy is 2nd in YPA right now so that means he's extended beyond that but the safer explosive is most likely under 10 and one broken tackle with 3 of the top 5 YAC monsters in the game (Deebo, Kittle and CMC)...and Jennings and Aiyuk aren't too bad either.

They were coming in. But then sold out. We'll see what next week holds for the game plan. I don't think it'll be as run centric.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I would rather have a negative 3 yards on a 1st down run than an 8 yard sack. But maybe that is just me.

That's fair. Plus the holding penalty is 10 yards. That's stupid brutal. False start. We specialize in both (26 through 9 games).

Holding is called on both run and pass plays and so are false starts.

True. Illegal shifts/motions. Delay of game. Now I'm curious which would get called more. More penalties in run/pass? We'd be an interesting case study given we're as close to 50/50 as it gets.

I think you are just grasping at straws at this point. I am not saying we should run it 100% of the time on first down. Obviously we should be looking for a more balanced attack on 1st down since it is a neutral down as far as run and pass are concerned. I just had no issue with the run heavy gameplan against the worste run defense in the NFL. Did it work out in our favor in the first half? No. But we made up for it in the second half and dominated TOP and out gained the opponent by 150 yards.

Bingo. And be willing to shift if you see how a DC is hyper focused on stopping the run rather than just ride and die with the plan.

Kyle's First Down Run ratio

2022 - 37.8%
2021 - 34.9%
2020 - 28.9%
2019 - 36.0%
2018 - 28.4%
2017 - 27.1%

Kyle is a throw lean on first down and has been his entire tenure as an NFL playcaller

Here's the thing… Jonny pointed out a number of mistakes and missed opportunities, but there were still a ton of good plays. 230 yards passing and 157 yards rushing is a very productive day. To put it in perspective, that's around what the #4 or #5 offense in the league averages per game.

People are just antsy because we didn't put up 30. But again… tighten up on a few things and the score differential is a lot prettier. Aiyuk's fumble lead to 3 points for LAC. He dropped a TD. Gould missed an XP. Those three plays alone being executed better could've been… what, a 27-13 game with a run-heavy gameplan?

Given that we have three new starters on the offensive line this season, a new starting RB, and Jimmy didn't get a training camp with us… it's not surprising that we're inconsistent here and there. I'm not worried about it… the team and coaching staff is made up of grinders… they're going to keep working on it and will iron out a lot of the kinks.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

?
I'm not sure where this is coming from. Teams that run primarily zone-run are:
KC
CHI
DEN
GB
LA
LA
SF
CAR
PHI
DAL
ATL
DET
NE
MIA
NYJ
SEA
ARI
JAX

Then there's 50/50 kind of teams
BUF
WAS
TB
NYG

The wide-zone has been sweeping through the league again since Kyle was in ATL

I have a real hard time with, "the scheme is too complicated".

jd, it's not good enough to just call it 'zone run scheme'. The 49ers have gone away from being so outside zone dominant to incorporating more inside zone. This is due to more 2 high safety defenses, and five man fronts that are making a comeback. A better breakdown is how many teams still are heavy on outside zone. I don't watch enough other teams to know. I'd also bucket the 49ers into 50/50, but I can't quantify.

Honest question here...have we had one run outside the T this year? Like the old Mostert/Breida days. I genuinely can't remember seeing one.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by a49erfan77:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

How is this so different than passing plays? Is McG blows a pass block, the play has a big chance of failing. If all the players execute, but Aiyuk has the pass doink off his shoulder, that's a failed play. If everyone executes a good playcall, but the QB misses the read or butchers the throw, that's a failed play. The main player that makes potential failed pass plays look successful is the QB. I'm sure there have been situations where it's a poor playcall versus the coverage, or failed pass block but the QB uses his ability to be a playmaker and makes the coach look good.

Using that same analogy for run plays, if Brendl blows a block, a run play with the potential for a chunk gain is just a short gain. On a running play, the player that makes potential failed run plays look successful is the RB.

Execution is always important whether it be run play or pass play. There is one equalizer in all this, and it's having a player that makes something awesome out of nothing. I would not put Jimmy in that category. I would put Eli/CMC in that category. (yes, I saw the throw to RayRay)

I think the argument here is that passing plays in general are less complex and harder to screw up than complicated zone run plays.

Is that true? I didn't know that.

Yeeeeah. That don't sound right.

Look at the analytics. Sack rates, drop rates, pick rates. The vast majority of big, negative plays happen on passing plays. When you have a great defense, if you don't turn the ball over, you have a huge chance to win.

Kyle is playing to his strengths. Defense, run game, a QB that is good at converting '3rd & medium'. Like you stated, this all points to controlling the clock and limiting turnovers so the defense isn't put into tough situations (short field).

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I would rather have a negative 3 yards on a 1st down run than an 8 yard sack. But maybe that is just me.

That's fair. Plus the holding penalty is 10 yards. That's stupid brutal. False start. We specialize in both (26 through 9 games).

Holding is called on both run and pass plays and so are false starts.

True. Illegal shifts/motions. Delay of game. Now I'm curious which would get called more. More penalties in run/pass? We'd be an interesting case study given we're as close to 50/50 as it gets.

I think you are just grasping at straws at this point. I am not saying we should run it 100% of the time on first down. Obviously we should be looking for a more balanced attack on 1st down since it is a neutral down as far as run and pass are concerned. I just had no issue with the run heavy gameplan against the worste run defense in the NFL. Did it work out in our favor in the first half? No. But we made up for it in the second half and dominated TOP and out gained the opponent by 150 yards.

Bingo. And be willing to shift if you see how a DC is hyper focused on stopping the run rather than just ride and die with the plan.

Kyle's First Down Run ratio

2022 - 37.8%
2021 - 34.9%
2020 - 28.9%
2019 - 36.0%
2018 - 28.4%
2017 - 27.1%

Kyle is a throw lean on first down and has been his entire tenure as an NFL playcaller

That's 8th most. That makes it still very predictable overall.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-first-down-pct

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by a49erfan77:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff and even better eye. Even that first RPO might have won outside on the pass. No doubt the run is where the 2 weeks were focused on.

Panelli showed a few weeks ago how close these explosives are on the screen game too...just a slightly different angle by Banks (example) and it's a long TD.

You need absolute precision by everyone.

Which probably makes it a terrible scheme. When everyone needs to win their assignments, you're going to have a piss poor offensive performance every week. This is probably the main reason a lot of teams don't use the Zone Run scheme. It's way too complicated even when you have the bodies to run it. With the league nerfing the chop block outside the numbers, it really neutered the outside zone run.

How is this so different than passing plays? Is McG blows a pass block, the play has a big chance of failing. If all the players execute, but Aiyuk has the pass doink off his shoulder, that's a failed play. If everyone executes a good playcall, but the QB misses the read or butchers the throw, that's a failed play. The main player that makes potential failed pass plays look successful is the QB. I'm sure there have been situations where it's a poor playcall versus the coverage, or failed pass block but the QB uses his ability to be a playmaker and makes the coach look good.

Using that same analogy for run plays, if Brendl blows a block, a run play with the potential for a chunk gain is just a short gain. On a running play, the player that makes potential failed run plays look successful is the RB.

Execution is always important whether it be run play or pass play. There is one equalizer in all this, and it's having a player that makes something awesome out of nothing. I would not put Jimmy in that category. I would put Eli/CMC in that category. (yes, I saw the throw to RayRay)

I think the argument here is that passing plays in general are less complex and harder to screw up than complicated zone run plays.

Is that true? I didn't know that.

Yeeeeah. That don't sound right.

Look at the analytics. Sack rates, drop rates, pick rates. The vast majority of big, negative plays happen on passing plays. When you have a great defense, if you don't turn the ball over, you have a huge chance to win.

Kyle is playing to his strengths. Defense, run game, a QB that is good at converting '3rd & medium'. Like you stated, this all points to controlling the clock and limiting turnovers so the defense isn't put into tough situations (short field).

^^^^this formula has won a s**t-load of ball games through out the history of this league.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
I would rather have a negative 3 yards on a 1st down run than an 8 yard sack. But maybe that is just me.

That's fair. Plus the holding penalty is 10 yards. That's stupid brutal. False start. We specialize in both (26 through 9 games).

Holding is called on both run and pass plays and so are false starts.

True. Illegal shifts/motions. Delay of game. Now I'm curious which would get called more. More penalties in run/pass? We'd be an interesting case study given we're as close to 50/50 as it gets.

I think you are just grasping at straws at this point. I am not saying we should run it 100% of the time on first down. Obviously we should be looking for a more balanced attack on 1st down since it is a neutral down as far as run and pass are concerned. I just had no issue with the run heavy gameplan against the worste run defense in the NFL. Did it work out in our favor in the first half? No. But we made up for it in the second half and dominated TOP and out gained the opponent by 150 yards.

Bingo. And be willing to shift if you see how a DC is hyper focused on stopping the run rather than just ride and die with the plan.

Kyle's First Down Run ratio

2022 - 37.8%
2021 - 34.9%
2020 - 28.9%
2019 - 36.0%
2018 - 28.4%
2017 - 27.1%

Kyle is a throw lean on first down and has been his entire tenure as an NFL playcaller

That's 8th most. That makes it still very predictable overall.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/rushing-first-down-pct

No....No it doesn't.

Originally posted by thl408:
Kyle is playing to his strengths. Defense, run game, a QB that is good at converting '3rd & medium'. Like you stated, this all points to controlling the clock and limiting turnovers so the defense isn't put into tough situations (short field).

Agreed. When the 49ers are really clicking, we have long methodical drives on offense that wears down the opposing defense and keeps our own defense fresh for the 4th quarter clampdown…

I felt largely, we were doing a pretty good job of running our gameplan and grinding and wearing down the Chargers. I'm of the opinion that it's only a matter of time before the explosives start coming.

Originally posted by NCommand:
No need. You'll most likely see it in a few weeks. And your theory was already debunked anyhow.

3 less runs per game if Tua chooses to run instead of pass. Hardly debunked. But carry on.

Originally posted by Wubbie:
Here's the thing… Jonny pointed out a number of mistakes and missed opportunities, but there were still a ton of good plays. 230 yards passing and 157 yards rushing is a very productive day. To put it in perspective, that's around what the #4 or #5 offense in the league averages per game.

People are just antsy because we didn't put up 30. But again… tighten up on a few things and the score differential is a lot prettier. Aiyuk's fumble lead to 3 points for LAC. He dropped a TD. Gould missed an XP. Those three plays alone being executed better could've been… what, a 27-13 game with a run-heavy gameplan?

Given that we have three new starters on the offensive line this season, a new starting RB, and Jimmy didn't get a training camp with us… it's not surprising that we're inconsistent here and there. I'm not worried about it… the team and coaching staff is made up of grinders… they're going to keep working on it and will iron out a lot of the kinks.

All fair. The conversation coming out of the Rams game was excitement for the passing game. CMC finally added a security blanket for Jimmy and is the ultimate chess piece. Deebo was coming back. Mitchell coming back.

Two weeks to solidify the playbook for CMC and Kyle to draw up his ideal game plan with all his weapons and everyone on offense healthy together (minus only Trey).

"Who are you going to stop? You can't cover everyone!"

Maybe it wasn't fair to expect a more pass centric, creative and explosive passing game coming in last week.