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Harbaugh's 3-4 or Shanahan's Wide 9

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  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 33,368
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.
  • fan49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,257
We have the team built for the 4-3 anything else with the top level defense we have would be a reset in the worst way
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 33,368
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,071
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 33,368
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,071
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

In what you are explaining above with the 5 DBs, how many of those five are CBs, and how many are safeties?
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 33,368
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

In what you are explaining above with the 5 DBs, how many of those five are CBs, and how many are safeties?

Simple, if you are facing a running team you'd want the big run stopping safeties to play more, if you are facing a passing team, possibly you'd want the coverage safeties to play more.

Key would be the Safeties themselves. You'd always want top of the line CBS, but you'd want those safeties to be athletic as hell and be sort of like hybrid John Lynch type players. You want them to be smart as hell, and have the speed and athleticism to play the safety position well, because they need to vary the defensive coverages bases on tendencies and style of opposing offense.They should be 2nd round talent at minimum. DEs would always be 1st round talent in my redesigned defense.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,071
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

In what you are explaining above with the 5 DBs, how many of those five are CBs, and how many are safeties?

Simple, if you are facing a running team you'd want the big run stopping safeties to play more, if you are facing a passing team, possibly you'd want the coverage safeties to play more.

Key would be the Safeties themselves. You'd always want top of the line CBS, but you'd want those safeties to be athletic as hell and be sort of like hybrid John Lynch type players. You want them to be smart as hell, and have the speed and athleticism to play the safety position well, because they need to vary the defensive coverages bases on tendencies and style of opposing offense.They should be 2nd round talent at minimum. DEs would always be 1st round talent in my redesigned defense.

Geidi, you didn't answer the question.
A) 2 CBs, 3 safeties
B) 3 CBs, 2 safeties

Which one are you talking about when you say 4-2-5?
thl, you're a good guy.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

basically it is a Nickel.. the difference is that Nickel D has always consist of 4 down linemen w/2 run stopping LBs..

TCU's 4-2-5 was designed to have a 3 down linemen, an EDGE rusher (who in my vocabulary is Lawrence Taylor/Derek Thomas - up OLBs) .. then a hybrid SS/LB.. call it what they want, but it is design to against a spread option formation w/a RB who can actually run instead of just being a blocker.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 33,071
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

basically it is a Nickel.. the difference is that Nickel D has always consist of 4 down linemen w/2 run stopping LBs..

TCU's 4-2-5 was designed to have a 3 down linemen, an EDGE rusher (who in my vocabulary is Lawrence Taylor/Derek Thomas - up OLBs) .. then a hybrid SS/LB.. call it what they want, but it is design to against a spread option formation w/a RB who can actually run instead of just being a blocker.

Got it. That's 'Big Nickel' (4 DL, 2 LB, 5 DBs)
5 DBs, in this case = 2 CBs, 3 safeties
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9moon:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Heroism:
Originally posted by Giedi:

I think Fangio's schemes are a bit out dated because of that.

Dang, someone forgot to tell all these NFL teams because Fangio's cover 6/quarters/2 shell/gap and a half defense is quite literally the hottest defensive thing in the NFL at the moment.




Welp, The Steve wilks hire kind of gives you an indication of what Kyle thinks of Fangios defense.

bottom line is that we just don' have the personnel to run the 3-4.. our LBs alone aren't build that way.. it'll take two more years before Fangio gets his type of players to run his 3-4 and the stars on D right now will either have to be paid or allow to walk..

I just don't like the 3-4, its too linebacker-centric, when you need DLinemen and DBacks to stop the pass happy NFL offenses of today. The Eagle defense is where I hope the 49er defense evolves to under Wilks. The 3-4 was great when your LBs can slobberknock the WRs going over the middle, but that's a 15 yard penalty now. The 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 defenses are where I think the NFL is heading to, just due to the CTE and the rules changes associated with the CTE issues.

for years I've wondered why no NFL team used the TCU's 4-2-5... I've always thought that if a DC can really learn how to use this, it will be the only way to match up w/the pass happy offenses that the NFL has turned into.

Isn't the 4-2-5 just 'Nickel'? Four DL, 2 LBs, 5 DBs - that's nickel. What's different about TCU's 4-2-5?

Agree, these are nickel personnel. The difference may be the safety play. If I'm designing the 49er 4-2-5 defense, those two LBs are Fred and Greenlaw 2.0 - LBs that are fast and can cover WRs and TEs.

The safety - would be a choice of a big run stopping safety that can cover TEs, or a more coverage safety that can cover both WRs and TEs.

Where scheme is important is how John Lynchs Tampa coverage worked. It was keyed to what Lynch did more than defensive calls. If Lynch was at the LOS, the coverage was more run oriented, if Lynch backed off - the coverage did something else. That was similar to how Fred Dean was used. When Fred was on the left the defense did one thing, on the right they did something else.

basically it is a Nickel.. the difference is that Nickel D has always consist of 4 down linemen w/2 run stopping LBs..

TCU's 4-2-5 was designed to have a 3 down linemen, an EDGE rusher (who in my vocabulary is Lawrence Taylor/Derek Thomas - up OLBs) .. then a hybrid SS/LB.. call it what they want, but it is design to against a spread option formation w/a RB who can actually run instead of just being a blocker.

Got it. That's 'Big Nickel' (4 DL, 2 LB, 5 DBs)
5 DBs, in this case = 2 CBs, 3 safeties

Which is why Ward may leave. They asked him to be that 5th guy and cover the slot receiver. He wanted to be free safety.
Given what's been built by Saleh and continued by Ryan, the wide 9 makes the most sense. It's why Fangio signed with Miami...Shanahan wasn't willing to convert his top-rated defense to VF's 3-4. It goes back to the old adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I do believe new DC Wilks will put his own tweak on it, as is his right to do, with Shanahan's nod. Wilks likes to blitz...a lot. That could be in part due to not yet having the caliber and depth of DL of the Niners. Wilks has a DB background, both as a player and coach, which should bode well for our secondary. Blitzing more requires tighter coverage, and if they're able to re-sign Moseley, that would help. I've read there's a DL, CB and S Wilks may want to "bring" in that are FA's with the Panthers. I say, bring 'em on...quality depth is so important. One of Wilks' trademarks is how devoted his players are to him...that's a great asset to have for former players who want to continue that relationship with him, especially on a top-rated defense. I'm thrilled the Niners signed Wilks to continue defensive greatness with the distinct possibility he can make it even better.
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