Joe Montana or Steve Young?

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by DrEll:
We were the better team in 95 for sure. The Packers got their ass handed to them vs Dallas the following week in the NFCC game. The same Dallas team we put up 40 against with Elvis Grbac IN Dallas a few weeks prior. We were the favorite for the SB that year.

We were a better team in 1997. We owned the best record. Swept the division. Owned the best defense in the league. Again I don't watch the highlights much bc it breaks my heart until this day but the Packers put ok and average effort at best that day. You g just couldn't muster any offense and I think we lost 23-7 or something like that.

The Divisional vs Atlanta was a wash. Our SB that year was the Catch II. Rice was old. Hearst had a bum hamstring. It was out worst defensive unit of the decade led by Antonio Langham It didn't matter whether we beat Atlanta that year….Minnesota with Randy Moss and Chris Carter with Randall would've embarrassed us…

The Packers dominated the 97 championship game with their defense. We scored 3 offensive points and got a late TD return from Chuck Levy for a final score of 23-10. It was not close. I understand we were the one seed (winning tiebreaker against GB at 13-3) and had the top ranked defense by some metrics, but our schedule was light. The NFC west was laughably bad that year. The best win of the season was the MNF game against the Broncos, but we also got absolutely annihilated by the Chiefs (the AFC one seed) in KC that year as well ending what I think was a 10 game winning streak or something like that. The Packers were a better team on both sides of the ball and again were favored on the road (pretty significant if you gamble at all).

I think the same was true in 95, but people didn't realize it going in so it was more of a surprise result. Having said that, the game was again not really close. It started with the Walker fumble-TD return and then the Packers offense completely dissected our defense to take a comfortable 3 score lead. Their defense was very good. We made the score closer in the end but again, it was really a one sided game that could have been even worse.

I agree that we probably don't beat the Vikings in the 98 title game, but we had opportunities to win the Falcons game even with the loss of Hearst early to the leg injury. We had the ball in scoring range down 14-10 (3rd quarter) and Young forced a terrible interception to Eugene Robinson that was returned all the way to the other side of the field giving the Falcons their own scoring opportunity (they grabbed a fg). On the ensuing possession Young, down 17-10, had another interception that looked like a miscommunication with his receiver (TE Clark I think). Young also should have had a 3rd turnover that was overturned in one of the most egregious (and forgotten) bad calls in playoff history. He threw a backwards pass to Terry Kirby at his feet that was picked up by a Falcon and returned for a touchdown, only to have the refs first incorrectly say the Falcons player was down by contact, and then change that call to say Kirby had possession of the fumble and was down by contact. The game would have been 21-0 and instead the 49ers kept possession and scored a touchdown making it 14-7. It really was ugly stuff that game.

You are right. Steve didn't exactly play great in that Atlanta game. Even had they escaped that game, the Niners highly likely get torched by that 98 Vikings with the defense completely falling off after the Bryant Young injury and no running backs. With that said, I think it's fair to say that ATL game would've turned out much different had our badass pro bowl RB not been carted off on the very first play from scrimmage

point is, it's very hard to win super bowls. Nobody, including Steve Young can do it alone, especially in that much more physical era of football. Just look at this past generation of great QBs that have retired or will retire with 1 ring or less. I truly believe IF at close to full strength, those late Niners teams would've made it to 1 or 2 more super bowls

Just 6.5 more months of this crap.

Come on we can do it!

Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:
Just 6.5 more months of this crap.

Come on we can do it!

sigh

Originally posted by boast:

Originally posted by 4ML:
Obviously Joe but if Steve had that 80s team - I can bet he wins 2-3 Superbowls minimum.

lol no Steve choked in the post season often. it's more likely to say Joe would have more if he was the QB in 92 and 93.

Not mutually exclusive. I didn't say Young would have helped Niners win 2-3 more Superbowls in the 80s. I believe - Young personally would have more championships than just 1 had he played for the Niners in the 80s than the 90s.

IMO '89 Niners win the SB with Steve Young at QB. That team was so damn good. Same for '84 team. Both of those teams could have won SBs with Young as QB. Those teams were loaded.

Montana probably wins at least 1 more Super bowl in the 90s. Young did have couple of bad games in the playoffs. Montana likely wins one more either in 92 or 93.

Having said that - Young also had way more pressure than Montana. Young had to step in for Greatest QB of that era. But, obviously Joe >>> Young.

I love and hate this question

Mostly because people seldom look at the entire issue....

Joe had a major advantage in hitting an NFL built to stop the run, and got to run an offensive system that was new to the NFL. No one really did what the 49ers were doing. Very few teams had the sheer size at WR the 49ers brought onto the field. There has been 6 foot tall WRs in the NFL before, but no one really ran out ONLY 6 foot tall+ WRs, and an offense based on timing was still relatively new to the NFL.

So yeah in a 3 yards and a cloud of dust era, the 49ers unleashed a Lamborghini at a John Deer tractor convention with Joe.

Steve came out in an era that had the WCO popping up all over the league and played against teams that built their entire defense to stop the WCO. We had Mora's 3-4, the Tampa Two, 46 defense and the zone blitz all pop up to respond to the timing based offenses and WCO.

Montana also never had to deal with the Dallas juggernaut of the 90s cowboys.

Very rarely in history does something like the Hershel Walker trade go down, then also Dallas had the number one pick that year. Basically Dallas got to chose 4 or 5 players in that deal to fill holes including CB Holt who was a very very solid cover CB. Holt would have been the best CB on last years 49ers team. On top of that 3 first round picks, 3 second round picks, 3 3rd round picks and a 6th.

That trade and good drafting built that Dallas team and that Dallas team effected Steve's Legacy.

Comparing Joe and Steve with out taking in account the easier ERA Montana played in and Steve having to contend with Dallas is just very short sighted.

I personally go backwards and forwards on this. I love both QBs.

Montana had far more offensive line talent and defensive talent around him. There is zero doubt that minus 94 Montana had the far greater Defense and O-Line. Steve always had Jerry and they shared many other players between them on offense.

Joe was lucky as hell and had the "it" factor, but people forget there was 2 or 3 dropped interception that would have negated a SB run and had the 49ers loose 2 others. He was far from perfect and between the "catch" and a few dropped interceptions Joe Montana would not be Joe Montana. Dude was lucky.

Steve on the other hand, was a strong armed Mobile monster of a QB, and yet I distinctly remember HOPING or out right WISHING the offense could get off the field with out a turnover against Dallas. Steve was not Jimmy G....but it was a similar feeling. If we can just get a few first downs and punt the ball with out turning it over and give the other team a short field that in itself is a win.

Joe gave you hope that anything can happen, and Steve didn't. Simple as that. Someone will drop that Montana INT, Steve will have it batted at the line bounce off 3 helmets and get picked off. That is kind of how I felt.

If I was building a team from scratch, honestly...I probably go with Steve. Far more healthy, far more durability. Surgeon with the football and mobile.

Steve is the best mortal to play QB for the 49ers.

Joe tho..... God himself is a Joe Montana fan, no defense in history can defend against Divine intervention.

Originally posted by 91til:

Originally posted by 9moon:
Steve was the better passer but he's not close to Joe as a QB...

sometimes, it takes more than being a very good passer.. Those teams that Young lost to so many times... Dallas... Green Bay... Joe would not lose to those teams.. .. maybe.. JUST maybe, the Green Bay team that won their 1st Super Bowl w/Brett Favre..

The difference??? Teams did not respect Young's talent the way they respected Joe when it comes " GAME TIME "..

Go ask Chris Collinsworth.. " he's not God, he's not human... the guy is someone in between "..

Did Collinsworth say that about Joe? That's a great quote lol

INSIDE NFL - HBO

not sure how old you are now, but it was an awesome show every Thursday night at 11pm...

Originally posted by Livendiea9er:
We have all said it 1000 times and I'll say it again, if not for Leonard freaking Marshall, we don't have this conversation.

There was another camera angle where Joe saw JR running 3 yards ahead of the DB downfield.. I remember Joe dodged one guy, only to get hit by 70..

Originally posted by Dshearn:
I love and hate this question

Mostly because people seldom look at the entire issue....

Joe had a major advantage in hitting an NFL built to stop the run, and got to run an offensive system that was new to the NFL. No one really did what the 49ers were doing. Very few teams had the sheer size at WR the 49ers brought onto the field. There has been 6 foot tall WRs in the NFL before, but no one really ran out ONLY 6 foot tall+ WRs, and an offense based on timing was still relatively new to the NFL.

So yeah in a 3 yards and a cloud of dust era, the 49ers unleashed a Lamborghini at a John Deer tractor convention with Joe.

Steve came out in an era that had the WCO popping up all over the league and played against teams that built their entire defense to stop the WCO. We had Mora's 3-4, the Tampa Two, 46 defense and the zone blitz all pop up to respond to the timing based offenses and WCO.

Montana also never had to deal with the Dallas juggernaut of the 90s cowboys.

Very rarely in history does something like the Hershel Walker trade go down, then also Dallas had the number one pick that year. Basically Dallas got to chose 4 or 5 players in that deal to fill holes including CB Holt who was a very very solid cover CB. Holt would have been the best CB on last years 49ers team. On top of that 3 first round picks, 3 second round picks, 3 3rd round picks and a 6th.

That trade and good drafting built that Dallas team and that Dallas team effected Steve's Legacy.

Comparing Joe and Steve with out taking in account the easier ERA Montana played in and Steve having to contend with Dallas is just very short sighted.

I personally go backwards and forwards on this. I love both QBs.

Montana had far more offensive line talent and defensive talent around him. There is zero doubt that minus 94 Montana had the far greater Defense and O-Line. Steve always had Jerry and they shared many other players between them on offense.

Joe was lucky as hell and had the "it" factor, but people forget there was 2 or 3 dropped interception that would have negated a SB run and had the 49ers loose 2 others. He was far from perfect and between the "catch" and a few dropped interceptions Joe Montana would not be Joe Montana. Dude was lucky.

Steve on the other hand, was a strong armed Mobile monster of a QB, and yet I distinctly remember HOPING or out right WISHING the offense could get off the field with out a turnover against Dallas. Steve was not Jimmy G....but it was a similar feeling. If we can just get a few first downs and punt the ball with out turning it over and give the other team a short field that in itself is a win.

Joe gave you hope that anything can happen, and Steve didn't. Simple as that. Someone will drop that Montana INT, Steve will have it batted at the line bounce off 3 helmets and get picked off. That is kind of how I felt.

If I was building a team from scratch, honestly...I probably go with Steve. Far more healthy, far more durability. Surgeon with the football and mobile.

Steve is the best mortal to play QB for the 49ers.

Joe tho..... God himself is a Joe Montana fan, no defense in history can defend against Divine intervention.

what you need to remember is that had we had Joe still, no dynasty will happen in Dallas..

HALEY would have never asked to be traded had Joe stayed.. Haley hated Young...

Originally posted by Dshearn:
I love and hate this question

Mostly because people seldom look at the entire issue....

Joe had a major advantage in hitting an NFL built to stop the run, and got to run an offensive system that was new to the NFL. No one really did what the 49ers were doing. Very few teams had the sheer size at WR the 49ers brought onto the field. There has been 6 foot tall WRs in the NFL before, but no one really ran out ONLY 6 foot tall+ WRs, and an offense based on timing was still relatively new to the NFL.

So yeah in a 3 yards and a cloud of dust era, the 49ers unleashed a Lamborghini at a John Deer tractor convention with Joe.

Steve came out in an era that had the WCO popping up all over the league and played against teams that built their entire defense to stop the WCO. We had Mora's 3-4, the Tampa Two, 46 defense and the zone blitz all pop up to respond to the timing based offenses and WCO.

Montana also never had to deal with the Dallas juggernaut of the 90s cowboys.

Very rarely in history does something like the Hershel Walker trade go down, then also Dallas had the number one pick that year. Basically Dallas got to chose 4 or 5 players in that deal to fill holes including CB Holt who was a very very solid cover CB. Holt would have been the best CB on last years 49ers team. On top of that 3 first round picks, 3 second round picks, 3 3rd round picks and a 6th.

That trade and good drafting built that Dallas team and that Dallas team effected Steve's Legacy.

Comparing Joe and Steve with out taking in account the easier ERA Montana played in and Steve having to contend with Dallas is just very short sighted.

I personally go backwards and forwards on this. I love both QBs.

Montana had far more offensive line talent and defensive talent around him. There is zero doubt that minus 94 Montana had the far greater Defense and O-Line. Steve always had Jerry and they shared many other players between them on offense.

Joe was lucky as hell and had the "it" factor, but people forget there was 2 or 3 dropped interception that would have negated a SB run and had the 49ers loose 2 others. He was far from perfect and between the "catch" and a few dropped interceptions Joe Montana would not be Joe Montana. Dude was lucky.

Steve on the other hand, was a strong armed Mobile monster of a QB, and yet I distinctly remember HOPING or out right WISHING the offense could get off the field with out a turnover against Dallas. Steve was not Jimmy G....but it was a similar feeling. If we can just get a few first downs and punt the ball with out turning it over and give the other team a short field that in itself is a win.

Joe gave you hope that anything can happen, and Steve didn't. Simple as that. Someone will drop that Montana INT, Steve will have it batted at the line bounce off 3 helmets and get picked off. That is kind of how I felt.

If I was building a team from scratch, honestly...I probably go with Steve. Far more healthy, far more durability. Surgeon with the football and mobile.

Steve is the best mortal to play QB for the 49ers.

Joe tho..... God himself is a Joe Montana fan, no defense in history can defend against Divine intervention.

Montana was far from lucky. He suffered significant back and elbow injuries in the mid 80's that nearly ended his career. He had impeccable timing in a timing based offense. He was also unbelievably calm in the highest pressure situations.

I hate when people suggest that he just took over a Walsh offense and that made his career. Without his mastery of reading defenses, getting play calls in, and making audibles without radios in his helmet, Walsh's offense wasn't going to be utilized properly. So much of what Walsh designed was dependent on the timing of drop backs, and Joe never missed a beat. He was fundamentally perfect. His passes were laid out in mid air, practically floating just ahead of the WR's route so they caught it in stride.

People can talk about Brady or Mahomes, and they might rack up more titles, but nobody will ever be the performer Joe was in the Super Bowl. 127.8 passer rating across 4 Super Bowls. Its just unreal.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by Dshearn:
I love and hate this question

Mostly because people seldom look at the entire issue....

Joe had a major advantage in hitting an NFL built to stop the run, and got to run an offensive system that was new to the NFL. No one really did what the 49ers were doing. Very few teams had the sheer size at WR the 49ers brought onto the field. There has been 6 foot tall WRs in the NFL before, but no one really ran out ONLY 6 foot tall+ WRs, and an offense based on timing was still relatively new to the NFL.

So yeah in a 3 yards and a cloud of dust era, the 49ers unleashed a Lamborghini at a John Deer tractor convention with Joe.

Steve came out in an era that had the WCO popping up all over the league and played against teams that built their entire defense to stop the WCO. We had Mora's 3-4, the Tampa Two, 46 defense and the zone blitz all pop up to respond to the timing based offenses and WCO.

Montana also never had to deal with the Dallas juggernaut of the 90s cowboys.

Very rarely in history does something like the Hershel Walker trade go down, then also Dallas had the number one pick that year. Basically Dallas got to chose 4 or 5 players in that deal to fill holes including CB Holt who was a very very solid cover CB. Holt would have been the best CB on last years 49ers team. On top of that 3 first round picks, 3 second round picks, 3 3rd round picks and a 6th.

That trade and good drafting built that Dallas team and that Dallas team effected Steve's Legacy.

Comparing Joe and Steve with out taking in account the easier ERA Montana played in and Steve having to contend with Dallas is just very short sighted.

I personally go backwards and forwards on this. I love both QBs.

Montana had far more offensive line talent and defensive talent around him. There is zero doubt that minus 94 Montana had the far greater Defense and O-Line. Steve always had Jerry and they shared many other players between them on offense.

Joe was lucky as hell and had the "it" factor, but people forget there was 2 or 3 dropped interception that would have negated a SB run and had the 49ers loose 2 others. He was far from perfect and between the "catch" and a few dropped interceptions Joe Montana would not be Joe Montana. Dude was lucky.

Steve on the other hand, was a strong armed Mobile monster of a QB, and yet I distinctly remember HOPING or out right WISHING the offense could get off the field with out a turnover against Dallas. Steve was not Jimmy G....but it was a similar feeling. If we can just get a few first downs and punt the ball with out turning it over and give the other team a short field that in itself is a win.

Joe gave you hope that anything can happen, and Steve didn't. Simple as that. Someone will drop that Montana INT, Steve will have it batted at the line bounce off 3 helmets and get picked off. That is kind of how I felt.

If I was building a team from scratch, honestly...I probably go with Steve. Far more healthy, far more durability. Surgeon with the football and mobile.

Steve is the best mortal to play QB for the 49ers.

Joe tho..... God himself is a Joe Montana fan, no defense in history can defend against Divine intervention.

Montana was far from lucky. He suffered significant back and elbow injuries in the mid 80's that nearly ended his career. He had impeccable timing in a timing based offense. He was also unbelievably calm in the highest pressure situations.

I hate when people suggest that he just took over a Walsh offense and that made his career. Without his mastery of reading defenses, getting play calls in, and making audibles without radios in his helmet, Walsh's offense wasn't going to be utilized properly. So much of what Walsh designed was dependent on the timing of drop backs, and Joe never missed a beat. He was fundamentally perfect. His passes were laid out in mid air, practically floating just ahead of the WR's route so they caught it in stride.

People can talk about Brady or Mahomes, and they might rack up more titles, but nobody will ever be the performer Joe was in the Super Bowl. 127.8 passer rating across 4 Super Bowls. Its just unreal.

Joe was the best QB in football, and even with that Joe made mistakes. Joe was Human, a very lucky human....but human.

I say lucky for the very reason you pointed out. His perfect Super Bowl record. Joe threw a game ending interceptions in both the Cincy Superbowls that were soft throws that hit the defenders right between the numbers...only to be dropped. Those passes looked like they would be picked 9 out of 10 times. Late game as they were, the 49ers where dangerously close to loosing the big game, because of a Joe Montana mistake.

Not to mention when we talk about Joe and Steve....we are really talking about Jerry Rice. This is the guy who makes this whole thing a conversation. There is pre-Jerry offense and their is post Jerry offense.

When you say /impeccable timing and calm under pressure.......that was not always the case.

Let's look at the Playoffs

81-84

2168 yards 7.8 YPA 17tds 11ints

It was in this era that Walsh thought Joe (Who flirted with a 5% interception ratio) needed to be changed and tried to trade for John Elway.

85-87

503 yards 5.7 YPA 0tds 4 ints

When we look at the first 6 years of Joe Montana's 9 years in the playoffs with the 49ers we are talking about a guy with 17 touchdowns and 15 interceptions.

The 49ers had some insane teams, and some of the best defenses the 49ers have ever seen.....but....Joe could be Hot or Joe could be Cold.

In 86 Jerry really started to become the Jerry Rice we remember, and from 88 and beyond he dominated the post season. Jerry Rice is why we remember Joe Cool, and why we stick Steve Young in these all time QB lists.

In 88 Craig went off, and the ground game flourished. Craig went from a 200 carry a season HB/FB to a 300 carry a season back.

88-90

2088 yards 9 YPA 22tds 2 ints

When people talk about Joe Cool, or "fundamentally perfect" they are mostly remembering this 3 year span... the Jerry Rice version of Joe Montana. They (and you) are right. Montana and that offense was near perfect in those years. It was Transcendent.

It really is not that different when people remember Tom Brady as the best ever. Maybe he is, but damn....he had ALOT of help. Just like Joe had a lot of help. Neither are perfect, both made a lot of mistakes along the way and both got pretty darn lucky to become the legends they are.

You love Joe, I love Joe....we all love Joe. I am not nocking the guy, just saying he was not always perfect..... people that said he was a system QB are not really wrong. He was a system QB. I don't think you could drop Joe on any team and the NFL would remember him the way it does.

Montana didn't face the Dallas teams of the 90s but in the early part of his career Dallas was a power. They had a great defense along with a good offense. Once Dallas started to decline the NY Giants and the Redskins both became powers in the east. Both of those teams were good enough to win multiple SBs.

Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
Montana didn't face the Dallas teams of the 90s but in the early part of his career Dallas was a power. They had a great defense along with a good offense. Once Dallas started to decline the NY Giants and the Redskins both became powers in the east. Both of those teams were good enough to win multiple SBs.

... it should be...

Dallas of the 90s didn't face JOE.. as good as Steve was, every teams in the NFL were glad to face him over JOE..

Originally posted by Dshearn:
Joe was the best QB in football, and even with that Joe made mistakes. Joe was Human, a very lucky human....but human.

I say lucky for the very reason you pointed out. His perfect Super Bowl record. Joe threw a game ending interceptions in both the Cincy Superbowls that were soft throws that hit the defenders right between the numbers...only to be dropped. Those passes looked like they would be picked 9 out of 10 times. Late game as they were, the 49ers where dangerously close to loosing the big game, because of a Joe Montana mistake.

Not to mention when we talk about Joe and Steve....we are really talking about Jerry Rice. This is the guy who makes this whole thing a conversation. There is pre-Jerry offense and their is post Jerry offense.

When you say /impeccable timing and calm under pressure.......that was not always the case.

Let's look at the Playoffs

81-84

2168 yards 7.8 YPA 17tds 11ints

It was in this era that Walsh thought Joe (Who flirted with a 5% interception ratio) needed to be changed and tried to trade for John Elway.

85-87

503 yards 5.7 YPA 0tds 4 ints

When we look at the first 6 years of Joe Montana's 9 years in the playoffs with the 49ers we are talking about a guy with 17 touchdowns and 15 interceptions.

The 49ers had some insane teams, and some of the best defenses the 49ers have ever seen.....but....Joe could be Hot or Joe could be Cold.

In 86 Jerry really started to become the Jerry Rice we remember, and from 88 and beyond he dominated the post season. Jerry Rice is why we remember Joe Cool, and why we stick Steve Young in these all time QB lists.

In 88 Craig went off, and the ground game flourished. Craig went from a 200 carry a season HB/FB to a 300 carry a season back.

88-90

2088 yards 9 YPA 22tds 2 ints

When people talk about Joe Cool, or "fundamentally perfect" they are mostly remembering this 3 year span... the Jerry Rice version of Joe Montana. They (and you) are right. Montana and that offense was near perfect in those years. It was Transcendent.

It really is not that different when people remember Tom Brady as the best ever. Maybe he is, but damn....he had ALOT of help. Just like Joe had a lot of help. Neither are perfect, both made a lot of mistakes along the way and both got pretty darn lucky to become the legends they are.

You love Joe, I love Joe....we all love Joe. I am not nocking the guy, just saying he was not always perfect..... people that said he was a system QB are not really wrong. He was a system QB. I don't think you could drop Joe on any team and the NFL would remember him the way it does.

That dropped interception in the 2nd Bengals SB wasn't going to be game losing. There was plenty of game left. It just would've made it tougher. Esiason might have thrown a pick 6 on the next possession for all anyone knows, so you can't play that game. Part of the pressure of the SB is seizing those opportunities, and Lewis Billups couldn't do it. Having a career 127.8 passer rating across the 4 biggest games of your career isn't lucky. Some people choke under pressure. Most everyone else finds a way to calm their nerves enough to perform. Very, very few actually elevate their games in those situations, and Montana had that ability, maybe more so than anyone in NFL history.

Accuracy = Montana
Arm strength = Kaepernick
Elusiveness = Garcia
Grit = Garcia
Leadership = Young
Passing Touch = Montana
Pocket Presence = Montana
Poise = Montana
Size = Kaepernick
Speed = Kaepernick
Vision = Montana

No Smith, no Jimmy, no surprise. Changed Grit = Garcia. Heck I think this is right based on what I remember.

Originally posted by 49erKing:
Accuracy = Montana
Arm strength = Kaepernick
Elusiveness = Garcia
Grit = Garcia
Leadership = Young
Passing Touch = Montana
Pocket Presence = Montana
Poise = Montana
Size = Kaepernick
Speed = Kaepernick
Vision = Montana

No Smith, no Jimmy, no surprise. Changed Grit = Garcia. Heck I think this is right based on what I remember.

Not entirely sure I agree with this.

Steve was probably more accurate then Joe.

I was a Garcia fan, but I am not sold he was more elusive then Young...

Just as I am not sure Kaepernick was faster then Young.

CK was electronically timed at 4.5, Steve Young was stopwatch timed at 4.37. Jerry Rice said Young was the fastest guy on offense, and the 49ers did use Young at WR as a deep threat.

On the flip side, a 4.37 stopwatch time...could be anything. It really could be anything. Could be a 4.3 flat...could be a 4.7...who knows. What we saw on the field was the same stuff we saw from CK.. long runs that could pull away from CBs and LBers alike.

CK was also a SLOW 4.5, his combine was one of the first they were using superimposed 40 times to watch guys run against each other, and CK did not get off the line like most 4.5 guys. CK claimed that his fastest 40 time was 4.4 something as I recall.

One last point to make here, we only knew the young version of CK, and we only knew the older version of Steve Young. So even if Steve Young did run a legit 4.37 coming into the league it might make no practically difference in this conversation.

Maybe CK is faster in an absolute sense like raw MPH. I am not really sold on it, but you might be 100% correct.

I also don't think Young was a better leader then Montana.

Montana did have that IT factor. Proving leadership without a bunch of quotes from guys is going to be an impossible thing, and it is hard to say the quotes you would find are even really what people thought. Lots of great teammates have said lots of great things about their QBs that they probably dont really take to heart themselves.

What I always remember is Joe crossing the picket lines during the players strike. He went on strike for a week or 2 as I recall (like a good teammate), but was one of the first players to cross the line and go back to work. He put the game before his pocketbook. This is not an opportunity afforded to many players, but it is really worth noting that he was in the "lead"....even if.... it was not popular with his teammates. He did what he thought was right.

If leadership means to inspire confidence in those around you, I think Joe has this one. Joe Cool, Joe Magic.... I think people accepted that Joe can and will rise to the occasion.