If the Niners had a "franchise" QB, would the overall roster be............

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
This is the crux of all the hand wringing, debate and overall dysfunction of the Niners offseason. The Niners as they are constructed right now are one of the top five rosters overall in the NFL without a "franchise" QB. They have the NFL's top defense, a bunch of offensive weapons and decent special teams. If the Niners had or went out to get that "franchise" QB, would they be better, worse or the same? They haven't signed a big time free agent or drafted their guy (unless Lance works out) so far. I'm of the opinion that this team would be worse overall if they had $ 40 million plus tied up in a "franchise" QB. What do you think?

Worse. It would be either bosa, or warner/greenlaw/charvy. Not all 4.

Originally posted by Furlow:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
This is the crux of all the hand wringing, debate and overall dysfunction of the Niners offseason. The Niners as they are constructed right now are one of the top five rosters overall in the NFL without a "franchise" QB. They have the NFL's top defense, a bunch of offensive weapons and decent special teams. If the Niners had or went out to get that "franchise" QB, would they be better, worse or the same? They haven't signed a big time free agent or drafted their guy (unless Lance works out) so far. I'm of the opinion that this team would be worse overall if they had $ 40 million plus tied up in a "franchise" QB. What do you think?

It depends on how elite the QB is. Are we talking Pat Mahomes/Josh Allen or Dak Prescott/Daniel Jones?

Overall talent is always going to be lessened when you pay big money to a QB. Need the QB to mitigate the talent losses with their play.

Mahomes is the only one so far who has done that.

We could have had that guy if we had a better QB evaluator

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
It's not dead money, they are spending it on their QB1. I mean we are spending like $14m on QB2/3 in comparison. So they are spending a marginal amount more on their starter, than we are for supposed backups.

Let's understand that every team in the NFL has to allocate real dollars to the QB position. It's not realistic to say, you can spend $0 or $1m on the QB spot, BP not withstanding. BP isn't normal, and even with BP, he can get injured, and you need other guys, you can win with.

You said rip cord. That indicates dead money

But ok looking at the deal Jones has a dead money cap hit of 18 mil in 25 if he fails. And that's assuming they allow his 45 mil cap hit to stay same in 24 and don't tweak it to add cap space. Can't get a few quality players for 18 million? You just eat that as the price of doing business? That's crazy.

Id take my chances with a stacked team and a guy on a rook deal all day long over a lesser team with above average qb being wildly overpaid.

got it, i thought you were talking about 2023.. if you look at 2023, realize they are paying not much more for their starter than we are for backups
the rip cord only comes into play in 2025 and that's if they want to move on

ppl talk like the rook contract is cheap i think the total deal to TL is $34 mil and he's started 4 games on it; it's not exactly cheap, particularly if he's not in the QB1 role

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
got it, i thought you were talking about 2023.. if you look at 2023, realize they are paying not much more for their starter than we are for backups
the rip cord only comes into play in 2025 and that's if they want to move on

ppl talk like the rook contract is cheap i think the total deal to TL is $34 mil and he's started 4 games on it; it's not exactly cheap, particularly if he's not in the QB1 role

In 2024 it's 45. Lance is a whole 11 next year. A quarter of the space.

Giants aren't a Super Bowl team as constituted and he isn't even yet a franchise guy. They are paying for what they hope he can be, not unlike using draft picks to trade up. Difference is if they are wrong it's a long way back because they can't easily replace QB AND they won't have the cap space to improve the team as much as they'd like with a 18 mil hole.

Never answered the question about Bosa. As long as the team wins will it not matter if he's an 8 sack guy who disappears in the playoffs?

Brock Purdy can win the whole thing.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Brock Purdy can win the whole thing.

THIS!

I don't think we lose games just because of the QB.

Sometimes the OLine tanks and others the Secondary gives up deep plays resulting in a TD and/or keeping plays alive.

A guy like Mahomes, Burrow, Allen come w/a steep cost that affects other contracts on the team.

At this time I think our D is the difference maker and keep us in contention.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
got it, i thought you were talking about 2023.. if you look at 2023, realize they are paying not much more for their starter than we are for backups
the rip cord only comes into play in 2025 and that's if they want to move on

ppl talk like the rook contract is cheap i think the total deal to TL is $34 mil and he's started 4 games on it; it's not exactly cheap, particularly if he's not in the QB1 role

In 2024 it's 45. Lance is a whole 11 next year. A quarter of the space.

Giants aren't a Super Bowl team as constituted and he isn't even yet a franchise guy. They are paying for what they hope he can be, not unlike using draft picks to trade up. Difference is if they are wrong it's a long way back because they can't easily replace QB AND they won't have the cap space to improve the team as much as they'd like with a 18 mil hole.

Never answered the question about Bosa. As long as the team wins will it not matter if he's an 8 sack guy who disappears in the playoffs?

$45m to me isn't a big deal. Take the two years together, $21+45=$66m, or $33m per year. JG was like $25-27m (in that range) and realize when JG signed, his deal was tops in NFL. Now tops in NFL is like $60m, by 2024, or higher. So Jones is getting like half that over the 2 years (33m per year). I see that as a reasonable deal for his status as a young 2nd contract QB1. It's not Lamar money, but it's not backup money either. And they can move on after the two years.

NYG could have said let's roll dice with a rook 6th rounder, and optimize elsewhere, they don't want to enter that kind of uncertainty. It destabilizes the whole offense. They go from a guy who knows the system with a year of equity in the system of Daboll, to some random clown, that they will have to get up to NFL speed, it kinda takes the franchise back a year or so. That's my thoughts, and NYG by their actions, agrees. I don't love Jones or the deal if I'm a NYG fan, but it's probably the best option.

On Bosa, the calculation is his current and expected future worth. He's worth the most money of any defender in NFL history. It's called a market setter. Parsons, Watt, Donald, these type of guys reset the market when they get new deals. If his production drops off, so be it, that may happen, and we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Following other sports like MLB, contracts are fully gtd, in NFL they are way easier to get out of. Ppl get restructured or deals redone or flat cut in NFL all the time. If you go back to Nate Clements, we signed him 8 years and I think he was cut in 5 (actually it's 4), so once players go beyond their usefulness, they are cut, like DHop or Cook.

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Brock Purdy can win the whole thing.

THIS!

I don't think we lose games just because of the QB.

Sometimes the OLine tanks and others the Secondary gives up deep plays resulting in a TD and/or keeping plays alive.

A guy like Mahomes, Burrow, Allen come w/a steep cost that affects other contracts on the team.

At this time I think our D is the difference maker and keep us in contention.

He's also plenty good enough and the best QB we have had in years and years. Not to be under estimated. We can win with BP.

We have a franchise guy.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
$45m to me isn't a big deal. Take the two years together, $21+45=$66m, or $33m per year. JG was like $25-27m (in that range) and realize when JG signed, his deal was tops in NFL. Now tops in NFL is like $60m, by 2024, or higher. So Jones is getting like half that over the 2 years (33m per year). I see that as a reasonable deal for his status as a young 2nd contract QB1. It's not Lamar money, but it's not backup money either. And they can move on after the two years.

NYG could have said let's roll dice with a rook 6th rounder, and optimize elsewhere, they don't want to enter that kind of uncertainty. It destabilizes the whole offense. They go from a guy who knows the system with a year of equity in the system of Daboll, to some random clown, that they will have to get up to NFL speed, it kinda takes the franchise back a year or so. That's my thoughts, and NYG by their actions, agrees. I don't love Jones or the deal if I'm a NYG fan, but it's probably the best option.

On Bosa, the calculation is his current and expected future worth. He's worth the most money of any defender in NFL history. It's called a market setter. Parsons, Watt, Donald, these type of guys reset the market when they get new deals. If his production drops off, so be it, that may happen, and we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Following other sports like MLB, contracts are fully gtd, in NFL they are way easier to get out of. Ppl get restructured or deals redone or flat cut in NFL all the time. If you go back to Nate Clements, we signed him 8 years and I think he was cut in 5 (actually it's 4), so once players go beyond their usefulness, they are cut, like DHop or Cook.

So again trading draft picks which are nothing more than lottery picks is the end of the world but using your cap to overpay players is perfectly fine even though it completely limits the actual proven players that can be added.

Commanders building around a random clown is perfectly acceptable.

Better

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
$45m to me isn't a big deal. Take the two years together, $21+45=$66m, or $33m per year. JG was like $25-27m (in that range) and realize when JG signed, his deal was tops in NFL. Now tops in NFL is like $60m, by 2024, or higher. So Jones is getting like half that over the 2 years (33m per year). I see that as a reasonable deal for his status as a young 2nd contract QB1. It's not Lamar money, but it's not backup money either. And they can move on after the two years.

NYG could have said let's roll dice with a rook 6th rounder, and optimize elsewhere, they don't want to enter that kind of uncertainty. It destabilizes the whole offense. They go from a guy who knows the system with a year of equity in the system of Daboll, to some random clown, that they will have to get up to NFL speed, it kinda takes the franchise back a year or so. That's my thoughts, and NYG by their actions, agrees. I don't love Jones or the deal if I'm a NYG fan, but it's probably the best option.

On Bosa, the calculation is his current and expected future worth. He's worth the most money of any defender in NFL history. It's called a market setter. Parsons, Watt, Donald, these type of guys reset the market when they get new deals. If his production drops off, so be it, that may happen, and we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Following other sports like MLB, contracts are fully gtd, in NFL they are way easier to get out of. Ppl get restructured or deals redone or flat cut in NFL all the time. If you go back to Nate Clements, we signed him 8 years and I think he was cut in 5 (actually it's 4), so once players go beyond their usefulness, they are cut, like DHop or Cook.

So again trading draft picks which are nothing more than lottery picks is the end of the world but using your cap to overpay players is perfectly fine even though it completely limits the actual proven players that can be added.

Commanders building around a random clown is perfectly acceptable.

Agree to disagree. Again Jones isn't an overpay, if he balls. If he doesn't ball, you have a 1 year overpay. Fine.
Meanwhile, if you forfeit your draft pick and you would have drafted a dud, fine. If you forfeit your pick, and you would have taken Jerry Rice, you lost a 15 year HOFer, level of production. Just look at your risk reward here.

You may counter by saying, oh but you lose a player like Buck.. I don't think that had to happen. Most teams, restructure guys, or cut old vets, there are a lot of ways to free up cap space.

You of all ppl should love the Commander philosophy. It's all about finding that dirt cheap QB on the 800k annual contract, and if he's a player, you can build it up around him, you get more effective cap space that every other club, cuz you are paying your QB1 dirt.

Same. Because he's already on the team.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Agree to disagree. Again Jones isn't an overpay, if he balls. If he doesn't ball, you have a 1 year overpay. Fine.
Meanwhile, if you forfeit your draft pick and you would have drafted a dud, fine. If you forfeit your pick, and you would have taken Jerry Rice, you lost a 15 year HOFer, level of production. Just look at your risk reward here.

You may counter by saying, oh but you lose a player like Buck.. I don't think that had to happen. Most teams, restructure guys, or cut old vets, there are a lot of ways to free up cap space.

You of all ppl should love the Commander philosophy. It's all about finding that dirt cheap QB on the 800k annual contract, and if he's a player, you can build it up around him, you get more effective cap space that every other club, cuz you are paying your QB1 dirt.

Trey wasnt an overpay if he wouldve balled either.

What if the FA you signed cheap becomes an elite player for a decade? A better chance of thst because you know what thet guy can do on NFL level.

Unlike you I'm consistent. I want an elite qp however we get it. I just don't want to pay for mediocrity. If you have to risk draft picks to try and make that elite qb happen so be it. If you miss face the consequences. But don't risk the money on mediocrity.

Originally posted by fropwns:
We have a franchise guy.

And his name is.............................