Is Wilks trying to transition us to a Hybrid 3-4 Defense (4-3 under)?

The latest move to felt like a hint that Wilks' insistence on running five man fronts is part of an attempt to segue into a hybrid 3-4 defensive scheme, pulling from his Ron Rivera background.

Some of what he's done has started to make a lot of sense now, but raises some serious concerns. Either he CAN'T coach our old scheme (specially the run fits) and/or he is EMPHATIC that the changes will benefit us long-term (and maybe he convinced Kyle of this).


THE ARGUMENT AGAINST IT
We simply DO NOT have any starting caliber corners who are better in man than zone. NONE. On top of this, this type of D subjects our lighter, fast flowing linebackers to astronomically more punishment. Warner and Greenlaw aren't built like Bowman and Willis, they're not block occupiers. We want our guys with their hand in the dirt, and if the edges don't stand up, the 5-2 front doesn't offer as much disguise and in general is an enormous liability against the pass. I noticed we started having several of our DL stand up recently..


THE ARGUMENT FOR IT
Technically, with the addition of Chase Young, we actually DO somewhat have the personnel on the front seven to run this type of defense, and 3-4 does offer greater versatility in blitz disguises and we know Wilks is a heavy blitz proponent. Bosa's brother played LEO for LA, Hargrave played nose in Pitt, Gregory played in a 3-4, and Chase Young comes directly from that scheme in Washington. With our current personnel, a 3-4 base defense is this:



Conclusion: Wilks came in and tried to "fix" what what never broken
IMO the negatives outweigh the positives and it's a bad decision to tinker this way. We don't have the size you'd want for that kind of IDL rotation nor secondary pieces to run what Wilks is seemingly trying to do. We would be way more effective sticking with what the players knew and were comfortable with so they could play faster and more instinctual.

I don't agree they are moving to a five man front. That's just a changeup look that Wilks will use once in awhile. If I had to guess, it's like 3 or 4 times a game, if that. The 49ers are still a Wide9 base front. One reason Fangio was not a serious candidate for the DC job was because Kyle wanted to retain the wide9, which is very different than what Fangio does.

I've been reading folks talk about 4-2-5 as if it's some new personnel/formation, it's not. The 49ers do not use nickel to match up against other teams base personnel (2 WRs). The 49ers will use 4-2-5 when other teams deploy 3WRs, all teams do this.

Originally posted by thl408:

I don't agree they are moving to a five man front. That's just a changeup look that Wilks will use once in awhile. If I had to guess, it's like 3 or 4 times a game, if that. The 49ers are still a Wide9 base front. One reason Fangio was not a serious candidate for the DC job was because Kyle wanted to retain the wide9, which is very different than what Fangio does.

I've been reading folks talk about 4-2-5 as if it's some new personnel/formation, it's not. The 49ers do not use nickel to match up against other teams base personnel (2 WRs). The 49ers will use 4-2-5 when other teams deploy 3WRs, all teams do this.

No I completely agree there. The 4-2-5 nickel formation is nothing new, you're right. A 4-3 "under" base defense is more what I'm referring to when I say 5-2.



On Sunday, it seemed like either everyone flew outside and got gashed up the middle, or all flowed inside and totally disregarded edge containment. It's the most confused or, for lack of a better word -- stupid -- that I've seen the entire unit play all year.

The team should transition away from Wills.

He's an idiot. We should transition him out the door.

A 5-2 defense is supposed to have simpler reads, but personnel-wise, (beyond the secondary issues) we don't have any high quality interior run defenders. As thl mentioned in the other thread, AA is better against the run on the edge, Hargrave is not a run stuffer type, and Kinlaw has had leverage problems his entire career.

Considering this, if you're gonna run a 5-2 (or 4-3 under, whatever you wanna call it), we either need to shift our guys around to more optimally fit the formation, or stop calling it, IMO. I don't know if that means AA outside on run downs, but we have to do something..

Quite frankly, we might have to make a tough decision to cut someone like Ferrell and either bring up T.Y. McGill or someone else who's better suited for the role Wilks wants our IDL to play.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by thl408:
I don't agree they are moving to a five man front. That's just a changeup look that Wilks will use once in awhile. If I had to guess, it's like 3 or 4 times a game, if that. The 49ers are still a Wide9 base front. One reason Fangio was not a serious candidate for the DC job was because Kyle wanted to retain the wide9, which is very different than what Fangio does.

I've been reading folks talk about 4-2-5 as if it's some new personnel/formation, it's not. The 49ers do not use nickel to match up against other teams base personnel (2 WRs). The 49ers will use 4-2-5 when other teams deploy 3WRs, all teams do this.

No I completely agree there. The 4-2-5 nickel formation is nothing new, you're right. A 4-3 "under" base defense is more what I'm referring to when I say 5-2.



On Sunday, it seemed like either everyone flew outside and got gashed up the middle, or all flowed inside and totally disregarded edge containment. It's the most confused or, for lack of a better word -- stupid -- that I've seen the entire unit play all year.

I can assure you they are not going to a 4-3 Under (again). Do you think this because you saw something in the past few weeks or because they acquired Chase Young? The 49ers will remain a wide9 one gap attacking front as long as Kocurek is here. Wide9 also implies three stack LBs (no LB is on the LoS).

We're getting too hyperfocused on the 5-man DL. It's a wrinkle. Wilks isn't even using it as a base formation or to stop the run. He's dialing it up on passing downs, which is funky.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by thl408:

I don't agree they are moving to a five man front. That's just a changeup look that Wilks will use once in awhile. If I had to guess, it's like 3 or 4 times a game, if that. The 49ers are still a Wide9 base front. One reason Fangio was not a serious candidate for the DC job was because Kyle wanted to retain the wide9, which is very different than what Fangio does.

I've been reading folks talk about 4-2-5 as if it's some new personnel/formation, it's not. The 49ers do not use nickel to match up against other teams base personnel (2 WRs). The 49ers will use 4-2-5 when other teams deploy 3WRs, all teams do this.

No I completely agree there. The 4-2-5 nickel formation is nothing new, you're right. A 4-3 "under" base defense is more what I'm referring to when I say 5-2.



On Sunday, it seemed like either everyone flew outside and got gashed up the middle, or all flowed inside and totally disregarded edge containment. It's the most confused or, for lack of a better word -- stupid -- that I've seen the entire unit play all year.

I can assure you they are not going to a 4-3 Under (again). Do you think this because you saw something in the past few weeks or because they acquired Chase Young? The 49ers will remain a wide9 one gap attacking front as long as Kocurek is here. Wide9 also implies three stack LBs (no LB is on the LoS).

+1. I think Wilks wants to keep a fresher rotation across the DL including putting Bosa, Ferrell, and maybe even Young on the inside in certain packages.

Young-Hargrave-Bosa-Gregory with pure rush, stunts, and other creative deployment of assignments can provide some new dimensions to our pass rush.

Originally posted by SLCNiner:
The team should transition away from Wills.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
He's an idiot. We should transition him out the door.

Let's keep this thread focused on the title, not the DC. There is another thread to talk about the man.

We should have just went with Fangio if Wilks is going to change up the D. He doesn't know what he's doing.

Originally posted by Heroism:
We're getting too hyperfocused on the 5-man DL. It's a wrinkle. Wilks isn't even using it as a base formation or to stop the run. He's dialing it up on passing downs, which is funky.

Right, just a wrinkle. And Wilks' version of a five man front is five true DLmen with their hand in the dirt. It is too deliberate presnap imo. Conventional pressure packages consist of two versions - one is where the LoS is crowded (ex: two LBs mug the A gaps). Then when the ball is snapped, the defense reveals who the 5th rusher is. This uncertainty of who is blitzing will often force the offense to use their RB as a blitz pickup. At the very least, force the RB to do a check-release (check if any OLman needs help, then go run a route), which delays the RB's route.
The other conventional way to blitz is to not show any pressure presnap - disguise the blitz completely. Then when the ball is snapped, the 5th rusher comes from LB depth (or slot CB). Both these ways of blitzing generate uncertainty for the offense.

When the 49ers show the five man DL front, there is no uncertainty as to who is rushing or whether they will rush - it's going to be the five DLmen. I get why Wilks does this, it gives five separate 1v1s. But the spacing that each 1v1 gets is limited, as opposed to a four man rush, because it's a very wide front. Compare this to a typical rush scheme where Bosa is schemed to get a 1v1, with more spacing for a two way go. I know you've mentioned this Heroism.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by SLCNiner:
The team should transition away from Wills.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
He's an idiot. We should transition him out the door.

Let's keep this thread focused on the title, not the DC. There is another thread to talk about the man.

Transition is in the thread title.

Originally posted by thl408:

I can assure you they are not going to a 4-3 Under (again). Do you think this because you saw something in the past few weeks or because they acquired Chase Young? The 49ers will remain a wide9 one gap attacking front as long as Kocurek is here. Wide9 also implies three stack LBs (no LB is on the LoS).

It's something I've seen. We have ran a 5-2-4 and 5-1-5 at times. Examples below of 5-2 with insanely soft zone, 5-1 with press man. Both pass-rush situations. The 5-1 play actually worked out for us, but most of the time, the results have been horrific.





Couple other things I've noticed the past two weeks:
-Our corners have been slow and undisciplined in run support.
-Dre does not look anything like himself. He's been really slow in coverage and pursuit. Burks is inconsistent but we may need to consider limiting Dres coverage snaps right now.

Originally posted by thl408:
When the 49ers show the five man DL front, there is no uncertainty as to who is rushing or whether they will rush - it's going to be the five DLmen. I get why Wilks does this, it gives five separate 1v1s. But the spacing that each 1v1 gets is limited, as opposed to a four man rush, because it's a very wide front. Compare this to a typical rush scheme where Bosa is schemed to get a 1v1, with more spacing for a two way go. I know you've mentioned this Heroism.

Yep, the wider spread tends to isolate blockers 1v1 which allows the rusher more room to operate. This also gives the blitzer more room as well.