Is Wilks trying to transition us to a Hybrid 3-4 Defense (4-3 under)?

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Heroism:
We're getting too hyperfocused on the 5-man DL. It's a wrinkle. Wilks isn't even using it as a base formation or to stop the run. He's dialing it up on passing downs, which is funky.

Right, just a wrinkle. And Wilks' version of a five man front is five true DLmen with their hand in the dirt. It is too deliberate presnap imo. Conventional pressure packages consist of two versions - one is where the LoS is crowded (ex: two LBs mug the A gaps). Then when the ball is snapped, the defense reveals who the 5th rusher is. This uncertainty of who is blitzing will often force the offense to use their RB as a blitz pickup. At the very least, force the RB to do a check-release (check if any OLman needs help, then go run a route), which delays the RB's route.
The other conventional way to blitz is to not show any pressure presnap - disguise the blitz completely. Then when the ball is snapped, the 5th rusher comes from LB depth (or slot CB). Both these ways of blitzing generate uncertainty for the offense.

When the 49ers show the five man DL front, there is no uncertainty as to who is rushing or whether they will rush - it's going to be the five DLmen. I get why Wilks does this, it gives five separate 1v1s. But the spacing that each 1v1 gets is limited, as opposed to a four man rush, because it's a very wide front. Compare this to a typical rush scheme where Bosa is schemed to get a 1v1, with more spacing for a two way go. I know you've mentioned this Heroism.

What about a 5 man DL on obvious passing downs where you run your DEs out wide like a true wide 9??

Having an extra guy cannot be worse, no?

I agree with the disguise comments, but on 3rd and 22, don't think it matters a ton between rushing 4 or 5 and the disguise of the 5th.

Rushing 6 or more, yes.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by thl408:
I can assure you they are not going to a 4-3 Under (again). Do you think this because you saw something in the past few weeks or because they acquired Chase Young? The 49ers will remain a wide9 one gap attacking front as long as Kocurek is here. Wide9 also implies three stack LBs (no LB is on the LoS).

It's something I've seen. We have ran a 5-2-4 and 5-1-5 at times. Examples below of 5-2 with insanely soft zone, 5-1 with press man. Both pass-rush situations. The 5-1 play actually worked out for us, but most of the time, the results have been horrific.





Couple other things I've noticed the past two weeks:
-Our corners have been slow and undisciplined in run support.
-Dre does not look anything like himself. He's been really slow in coverage and pursuit. Burks is inconsistent but we may need to consider limiting Dres coverage snaps right now.

Yeah, that's a five DL front. Not a 4-3 Under. In the above pics, it looks like there is a 0tech with two 3techs. I believe whenever the 49ers use this five DL front, they are always in man coverage. Whether it's press or off coverage changes, but they are always in man.
Greenlaw is playing injured for sure. He's missing tackles he usually makes and looks gimpy picking himself up off the ground. Huf is also whiffing tackles at an uncomfortable rate.

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
What about a 5 man DL on obvious passing downs where you run your DEs out wide like a true wide 9??

Having an extra guy cannot be worse, no?

That's exactly what he's already doing. What the 5-DL front does is force everyone to rush in one lane. This takes away space to attack and limits the way in which OL can be attacked. With this front, Steve Wilks is essentially handcuffing Nick Bosa by limiting his moves and taking away his ability to attack(win) in every direction. It makes it a lot easier to block a DL when you know exactly how and where they're forced to rush.

I can't imagine Kocurek loves this s**t. This is the opposite of what the wide 9 intrinsically does with its spacing.

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
What about a 5 man DL on obvious passing downs where you run your DEs out wide like a true wide 9??

Having an extra guy cannot be worse, no?

I agree with the disguise comments, but on 3rd and 22, don't think it matters a ton between rushing 4 or 5 and the disguise of the 5th.

Rushing 6 or more, yes.

I agree with the bold as long as it doesn't leave a ton of room for a screen to work. We have been burned on screenplays all too often.

EDIT: It depends on the field position a lot.

Originally posted by thl408:

Yeah, that's a five DL front. Not a 4-3 Under. In the above pics, it looks like there is a 0tech with two 3techs. I believe whenever the 49ers use this five DL front, they are always in man coverage. Whether it's press or off coverage changes, but they are always in man.
Greenlaw is playing injured for sure. He's missing tackles he usually makes and looks gimpy picking himself up off the ground. Huf is also whiffing tackles at an uncomfortable rate.

I'll defer to you on schematics -- the whole "DL standing up" thing, and me seeing guys stand up a bit the past few weeks (don't know if this is any more than in the past) just made me wonder.

I absolutely hate this "wrinkle". I feel like it offers no disguise and less space/options for our pass rushers. It's too easy to attack when you know that 1) we'll have less guys in coverage, 2) our coverage will be very soft zone, and/or 3) our corners suck at press man and will often get flagged so even if it's not there, you can throw it up in a 1v1 situation and often get a free first down.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by thl408:
When the 49ers show the five man DL front, there is no uncertainty as to who is rushing or whether they will rush - it's going to be the five DLmen. I get why Wilks does this, it gives five separate 1v1s. But the spacing that each 1v1 gets is limited, as opposed to a four man rush, because it's a very wide front. Compare this to a typical rush scheme where Bosa is schemed to get a 1v1, with more spacing for a two way go. I know you've mentioned this Heroism.

Yep, the wider spread tends to isolate blockers 1v1 which allows the rusher more room to operate. This also gives the blitzer more room as well.

I don't think I explained that well, although you did bold the part where I said spacing is limited with a five DL front. The five DL front gives less space for each rusher because it's a wider front.

See Hero's post.

Originally posted by Heroism:
That's exactly what he's already doing. What the 5-DL front does is force everyone to rush in one lane. This takes away space to attack and limits the way in which OL can be attacked. With this front, Steve Wilks is essentially handcuffing Nick Bosa by limiting his moves and taking away his ability to attack(win) in every direction. It makes it a lot easier to block a DL when you know exactly how and where they're forced to rush.

I can't imagine Kocurek loves this s**t. This is the opposite of what the wide 9 intrinsically does with its spacing.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

What about a 5 man DL on obvious passing downs where you run your DEs out wide like a true wide 9??

Having an extra guy cannot be worse, no?

That's exactly what he's already doing. What the 5-DL front does is force everyone to rush in one lane. This takes away space to attack and limits the way in which OL can be attacked. With this front, Steve Wilks is essentially handcuffing Nick Bosa by limiting his moves and taking away his ability to attack(win) in every direction. It makes it a lot easier to block a DL when you know exactly how and where they're forced to rush.

I can't imagine Kocurek loves this s**t. This is the opposite of what the wide 9 intrinsically does with its spacing.

Excuse the language, but its horsesh** schematics. Wilks has done a lot to put our guys in bad positions while simultaneously taking away some of our best players' strengths. How tf he doesn't realize this is beyond me.

Why fix what wasn't broken?

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by thl408:
When the 49ers show the five man DL front, there is no uncertainty as to who is rushing or whether they will rush - it's going to be the five DLmen. I get why Wilks does this, it gives five separate 1v1s. But the spacing that each 1v1 gets is limited, as opposed to a four man rush, because it's a very wide front. Compare this to a typical rush scheme where Bosa is schemed to get a 1v1, with more spacing for a two way go. I know you've mentioned this Heroism.

Yep, the wider spread tends to isolate blockers 1v1 which allows the rusher more room to operate. This also gives the blitzer more room as well.

I don't think I explained that well, although you did bold the part where I said spacing is limited with a five DL front. The five DL front gives less space for each rusher because it's a wider front.

See Hero's post.

Originally posted by Heroism:
That's exactly what he's already doing. What the 5-DL front does is force everyone to rush in one lane. This takes away space to attack and limits the way in which OL can be attacked. With this front, Steve Wilks is essentially handcuffing Nick Bosa by limiting his moves and taking away his ability to attack(win) in every direction. It makes it a lot easier to block a DL when you know exactly how and where they're forced to rush.

I can't imagine Kocurek loves this s**t. This is the opposite of what the wide 9 intrinsically does with its spacing.

We're all on the same page.

STUPIDEST IDEA...

We don't have the DL to line up in Seifert's ELEPHANT 3-4... Kinlaw is not a NOSE... The Buckeye Express are both too light to be the 3-4 ENDS... Hargrave will be too small to play the inside..

The only one who will actually fit is Ganja Greg because he's a natural stand up (OLB) ... it'll also takeaway Yellow Flag Greenlaw's ability to chase down the runners because he'll have to take on the lead blockers..

just pure dull.. pure dull...

PLUS, turning over to this LINE UP will not make WILKS a good DC... I once again will have to go back to the old saying.. IF YOU SUCK, YOU SUCK !!

So in summary.. while it may not be a 3-4, the 5-man front with hands in the dirt is terrible and should be thrown out of the playbook because:

1) It is easier to attack & block because it is deliberate with no disguise.

2) It is easier to attack because it takes a 'backer out of coverage and opens wider passing windows in an already very soft zone or off-man.

3) It is easier to block due to it limiting the ability of our pass-rushers the space and options to attack the OL.

Originally posted by thl408:
I don't agree they are moving to a five man front. That's just a changeup look that Wilks will use once in awhile. If I had to guess, it's like 3 or 4 times a game, if that. The 49ers are still a Wide9 base front. One reason Fangio was not a serious candidate for the DC job was because Kyle wanted to retain the wide9, which is very different than what Fangio does.

I've been reading folks talk about 4-2-5 as if it's some new personnel/formation, it's not. The 49ers do not use nickel to match up against other teams base personnel (2 WRs). The 49ers will use 4-2-5 when other teams deploy 3WRs, all teams do this.

Yep. It is correct the bold words. I think doesn't work for five men fronts. They dont sack to the quarterback. Not working it. Wilks is so an idiot. Wilks is low IQ because he dont know calls playing for nope sack and bad plays!! Wish me fired wilks right now. He is damn too old fart!!

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
So in summary.. while it may not be a 3-4, the 5-man front with hands in the dirt is terrible and should be thrown out of the playbook because:

1) It is easier to attack & block because it is deliberate with no disguise.

2) It is easier to attack because it takes a 'backer out of coverage and opens wider passing windows in an already very soft zone or off-man.

3) It is easier to block due to it limiting the ability of our pass-rushers the space and options to attack the OL.

It was a novel idea the first time we saw it. But due to its predictability and the reasons you've listed above, it should be something that Wilks can use a couple times in one week, shelve it for a couple weeks, and use sparingly when he's feeling frisky. It's just so deliberate when you see the 49ers sub in five DL onto the field, the offense knows what's coming. What Heroism mentioned with the less spacing is a good reason to not use it much.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
So in summary.. while it may not be a 3-4, the 5-man front with hands in the dirt is terrible and should be thrown out of the playbook because:

1) It is easier to attack & block because it is deliberate with no disguise.

2) It is easier to attack because it takes a 'backer out of coverage and opens wider passing windows in an already very soft zone or off-man.

3) It is easier to block due to it limiting the ability of our pass-rushers the space and options to attack the OL.

I remember when the read option was all the rage in 2012, and hard for defenses to stop.

I asked my friend what he recommended to stop it, and he said the 5 man DL with two gapping, would cut off the zone read very well.

Seems to make sense to me, especially now that everybody says stuff gets crowded.

I think 5-2 can be effective against Ravens on early downs if we need to shut down Lamar.

Correct me if i'm wrong but even though Hargrave played NT with the Steelers he didn't become "great" until he was a DT in a 4-3.