KS Scheme only talk please

Shannahan's scheme is getting figured out. You can see it in some games where the offense get's stymied (Browns and Vikings for example). That scheme has taken over the league with so many protege's now running it DC's are figuring it out.

KEY to his scheme IMHO - The scheme attacks/exploits a defense's known assignments (and really individual defenders known assignments) to create space for open throws (and runs). This takes a lot of pre-planning for a game for the offense to be highly effective. When a defense breaks their tendencies on purpose, or even bates the offense with what the expected assignment is, then the offense seems a bit lost and ineffective -- hard to adjust on the fly.

A great example of this is the Sail concept -- the deep post matched to the over route - QB throws to hole between defenders to the over route in the middle of the field. The Bengals LB interception clearly (imho) exploited the assignment expectation to bate the QB throw. When the LB turned his back to the inside, Purdy threw to the inside hole expecting the LB to be playing his assignment to pick up an outside receiver -- but the LB instantly turned back inside to play the over route and picked off the pass. Excellent DC anticipation of the KS scheme.

The Vikings constantly changing scheme - that D significantly changes each week - made our offense struggle imho.

SOLUTIONS --
1. Your own tendency breakers -- we've seen that a little bit lately with the over routes being faked and instead turning into outs. But I would argue that by the time you hit play-off caliber teams -- this adaption has to be more significant each week in order to keep Defenses off balance.
2. More flexibility (not KS strength) on game day when the D is not doing what was expected.

THOUGHTS? What are you seeing?

The 49ers are currently averaging an NFL best 9.6 yard per pass attempt, and are tied for 8th best at 4.4 yards per rush. I don't see that as getting figured out. Kyle's scheme is based around having many formations/personnel groupings to keep defenses off balance, and exploiting mismatches. The plays/gameplan changes accordingly to what he thinks the defense is most susceptible to. You might find an example here and there of a DC getting the best of Kyle, because there are some plays that Kyle likes to use to beat certain coverages, but for the most part it's not like the offense is being stymied. At least that's not the sense I'm getting.

Originally posted by thl408:
The 49ers are currently averaging an NFL best 9.6 yard per pass attempt, and are tied for 8th best at 4.4 yards per rush. I don't see that as getting figured out. Kyle's scheme is based around having many formations/personnel groupings to keep defenses off balance, and exploiting mismatches. The plays/gameplan changes accordingly to what he thinks the defense is most susceptible to. You might find an example here and there of a DC getting the best of Kyle, because there are some plays that Kyle likes to use to beat certain coverages, but for the most part it's not like the offense is being stymied. At least that's not the sense I'm getting.

I see what both of you are saying.

imo the scheme overall is fantastic and effective. When we stall on offense it's usually due to injuries, or facing a d line that can simply outplay our offensive line which is somewhat regardless of scheme.
49ers offense revolves around Trent Williams as the rest do the o line is weak. When he was out we were mediocre at best with not much running threat.

Higher level thought - the running back and running game will circle back into the nfl more as it's most very hard to find good qb's and o linemen who can pass protect. Having a good running game scheme lets coaches bring along qb and o linemen more effectively.

also, to heart fans point - Kyle's offense is the standard now and defenses are being built to counter it. Also players now see this offense more and more each week so they understand what they are seeing better etc. very similar to the OG west coast offense.

Kyle will need to continue to evolve regardless.

More and more teams are indeed running parts of Kyle's offense with the result being that good defenses (good players and scheme) have learned and will defeat certain plays that would have been unstoppable two years ago. However, to this point, Kyle has been able to make small alterations that make the concept still work. The Sail concept HearstFan noted is one example where BA started on the route that normally turns to the middle but went outside - 1st down. I suspect Kyle is saving some stuff for later in the season/postseason along that same line.

The other thing that is a HUGE part of "Kyle's scheme" is the interchangeable pieces construct. It is not by accident that he has guys like Kittle, CMC, Deebo, and Juice, who are capable of doing different things well. That allows Kyle to run plays successfully even when the defense has an idea of what is coming.

It is one thing to know what is coming yet an entirely different matter to stop it. We see that over and over with those 15-20-yard completions in the middle of the field. Occasionally a defender will guess the route correctly as happened with the pick in the Cincy game but those will continue to be the exception until proven otherwise.

How many wide open guys have been schemed open in the last game?

I can't think of more than one or two plays where the coverage was completely broken.

Most of our success has been driven by Brock accuracy imo. He's hitting guys in stride in tight windows.

If his scheme is so good would you not expect a bunch of broken wide open receivers? Or is Brock just missing them and we aren't seeing it?

How come we never see CMC and Mitchell or CMC and Mason in on the same play?

Why do we not ever have any kittle leak routes where he chips his guy then goes out for the check down? Those would be monster 5 yard pitch and catch and 10 yard yac plays consistently.

Originally posted by BoldRedandGold:
How many wide open guys have been schemed open in the last game?

I can't think of more than one or two plays where the coverage was completely broken.

Most of our success has been driven by Brock accuracy imo. He's hitting guys in stride in tight windows.

If his scheme is so good would you not expect a bunch of broken wide open receivers? Or is Brock just missing them and we aren't seeing it?

How come we never see CMC and Mitchell or CMC and Mason in on the same play?

Why do we not ever have any kittle leak routes where he chips his guy then goes out for the check down? Those would be monster 5 yard pitch and catch and 10 yard yac plays consistently.

You clearly don't understand the difference between open and NFL open. Brock has been hitting open receivers. Most of the time, the tight windows you see are as open as it gets in the NFL, the scheme is working. This isn't college ball.

Originally posted by Young2Owens:
You clearly don't understand the difference between open and NFL open. Brock has been hitting open receivers. Most of the time, the tight windows you see are as open as it gets in the NFL, the scheme is working. This isn't college ball.

Nope I ain't buying this. By your definition every team has open receivers every week. Shanahan is supposed to be a prodigy. One step because ayuik makes a better cut than a corner does not constitute "schemed open"

Schemed open is pick plays or leak plays where a player is open due to defensive confusion or because they cannot get to their spot due to the scheme. Or where a player is flat out missed by the defense.

Show me examples of busted coverages where genius prodigy shanahan has designed a play nobody else has seen or defense has not seen... There are usually only a couple each game at max.

For example most QBs can't hit a lot of the throws Brock has made when he is on. The windows are too tight to put it anywhere but the numbers. Which does not constitute schemed open.

Originally posted by BoldRedandGold:
Nope I ain't buying this. By your definition every team has open receivers every week. Shanahan is supposed to be a prodigy. One step because ayuik makes a better cut than a corner does not constitute "schemed open"

Schemed open is pick plays or leak plays where a player is open due to defensive confusion or because they cannot get to their spot due to the scheme. Or where a player is flat out missed by the defense.

Show me examples of busted coverages where genius prodigy shanahan has designed a play nobody else has seen or defense has not seen... There are usually only a couple each game at max.

For example most QBs can't hit a lot of the throws Brock has made when he is on. The windows are too tight to put it anywhere but the numbers. Which does not constitute schemed open.

Reading posts like this makes me think you don't watch a ton of other football teams in any real depth. You're setting up expectations, or a standard, that doesn't really exist on this level.

If Shanahan's scheme was getting figured out, why is it so successful not only with the Niners but every other team that hires someone from Kyle's coaching tree? It almost seems possible that in 10 or 15 years every team in the league runs it.

Originally posted by BoldRedandGold:
How come we never see CMC and Mitchell or CMC and Mason in on the same play?

Actually we have.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:
Reading posts like this makes me think you don't watch a ton of other football teams in any real depth. You're setting up expectations, or a standard, that doesn't really exist on this level.

I'd love breakdowns of Harbaugh and Roman scheming guys open in the passing game. Since Harbaugh is a better coach and all. Same with Hue Jackson or Chip Kelly.

Originally posted by SLCNiner:
If Shanahan's scheme was getting figured out, why is it so successful not only with the Niners but every other team that hires someone from Kyle's coaching tree? It almost seems possible that in 10 or 15 years every team in the league runs it.

Dude has a coaching forest not a coaching tree. No one likes his scheme tho.

I'm not qualified enough to speak about KS's scheme.
However, I'll admit that watching the games, it's disappointing to see his inability to diversify his attacks. He gets very myopic with his usage of a single player within a game and across games till that player is observed sufficiently by the opponents and negates their element of surprise or capabilities because they're targeted. Only then he moves on from that player. Deebo a few years ago, or CMC this, and last year are perfect examples of that.
Furthermore, he doesn't understand the tendencies of his team or how well they're performing on a type of play during a game, and change from that. For example, everyone knows that he'll be running up the middle at the end to close the game, even if they're underperforming on that play throughout the game or during the ending drive on earlier down. He doesn't even attempt to sway away from that to get the first down on third downs to close the game.
I believe if he continues to be so obstinate or is incapable of being flexible, the team will likely never win the SB consistently.

LOL

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
LOL

This