2018 MLB Regular Season Thread

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I am impressed with some of the opinions in here. I assumed when I started reading that Yadi's HOF case was brought up that I would get into arguments with a ton of people thinking he is a first ballot, sure HOF, etc. Bottom line, Yadier Molina's HOF case is 100% due to reputation. If you want to talk about numbers, he doesnt have a case at all.

If you go strictly by offensive numbers I would agree. But defense should matter when talking about shortstops and catcher in my opinion and their value is much more than just the numbers that they put up.

In Molina's case, he has been a solid hitter, has 8 gold gloves, a key member of 2 World Series winning teams, and has played his entire 15 year career with one team. He is also #16 in career games caught and has several years ahead of him still. To me, that makes a real case for the HOF. But, if you just want to look at numbers and compare him to OFs and 1Bs then I guess you could say he doesnt have a case at all. In the end, I believe most people that vote will disagree with you though

I agree with the bolded. Molina has established, fair or not, an aura about him. People think he is a Hall of Famer. It isnt until you actually tell the person who believes he is a HOFer to explain why they think so where his argument falls flat. The general consensus belief is that he is one.

I am a big advocate of the idea that defense matters. It does. Just not as much as hitting. You claim he is a solid hitter. I say he is a below average hitter. He has had a few seasons of above average hitting, but mostly below average. I just find it hard to believe that a player who is 27th all time in WAR for his position is a Hall of Fame lock.

Originally posted by DaBum:

The interesting case to me is Mauer. Still about 63% of games at C, won an MVP at C, assuming he plays a few more years he'll get around 2500 hits, 3 batting titles, 3 GGs.

Mauer probably wont get in because he played his entire career up in Minnesota on very average to below average Twins teams. Its not fair, but how you are remembered matters, and Joe Mauer hasn't seemed to truly matter in years now.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I am impressed with some of the opinions in here. I assumed when I started reading that Yadi's HOF case was brought up that I would get into arguments with a ton of people thinking he is a first ballot, sure HOF, etc. Bottom line, Yadier Molina's HOF case is 100% due to reputation. If you want to talk about numbers, he doesnt have a case at all.

If you go strictly by offensive numbers I would agree. But defense should matter when talking about shortstops and catcher in my opinion and their value is much more than just the numbers that they put up.

In Molina's case, he has been a solid hitter, has 8 gold gloves, a key member of 2 World Series winning teams, and has played his entire 15 year career with one team. He is also #16 in career games caught and has several years ahead of him still. To me, that makes a real case for the HOF. But, if you just want to look at numbers and compare him to OFs and 1Bs then I guess you could say he doesnt have a case at all. In the end, I believe most people that vote will disagree with you though

I agree with the bolded. Molina has established, fair or not, an aura about him. People think he is a Hall of Famer. It isnt until you actually tell the person who believes he is a HOFer to explain why they think so where his argument falls flat. The general consensus belief is that he is one.

I am a big advocate of the idea that defense matters. It does. Just not as much as hitting. You claim he is a solid hitter. I say he is a below average hitter. He has had a few seasons of above average hitting, but mostly below average. I just find it hard to believe that a player who is 27th all time in WAR for his position is a Hall of Fame lock.

Solid hitting catcher. Lifetime .284 hitter who has averaged 12 homers per 162 games even though he certainly isnt considered a power hitter by any stretch. Again, if you compare him to outfielders or first baseman his numbers wont be HOF worthy but I think you truly have to go beyond that. 8 All Star appearances, 8 gold gloves, 4 Platinum gloves, 2 world series titles, 40% caught stealing rate.... these are the reasons I would support him for HOF. Not 1st ballot by any stretch but someone who eventually will get in. As for WAR, well I am not a big fan of using WAR to compare players from way back when. IMO, he is the 2nd best catcher of this generation behind Buster.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

I am impressed with some of the opinions in here. I assumed when I started reading that Yadi's HOF case was brought up that I would get into arguments with a ton of people thinking he is a first ballot, sure HOF, etc. Bottom line, Yadier Molina's HOF case is 100% due to reputation. If you want to talk about numbers, he doesnt have a case at all.

If you go strictly by offensive numbers I would agree. But defense should matter when talking about shortstops and catcher in my opinion and their value is much more than just the numbers that they put up.

In Molina's case, he has been a solid hitter, has 8 gold gloves, a key member of 2 World Series winning teams, and has played his entire 15 year career with one team. He is also #16 in career games caught and has several years ahead of him still. To me, that makes a real case for the HOF. But, if you just want to look at numbers and compare him to OFs and 1Bs then I guess you could say he doesnt have a case at all. In the end, I believe most people that vote will disagree with you though

I agree with the bolded. Molina has established, fair or not, an aura about him. People think he is a Hall of Famer. It isnt until you actually tell the person who believes he is a HOFer to explain why they think so where his argument falls flat. The general consensus belief is that he is one.

I am a big advocate of the idea that defense matters. It does. Just not as much as hitting. You claim he is a solid hitter. I say he is a below average hitter. He has had a few seasons of above average hitting, but mostly below average. I just find it hard to believe that a player who is 27th all time in WAR for his position is a Hall of Fame lock.

Solid hitting catcher. Lifetime .284 hitter who has averaged 12 homers per 162 games even though he certainly isnt considered a power hitter by any stretch. Again, if you compare him to outfielders or first baseman his numbers wont be HOF worthy but I think you truly have to go beyond that. 8 All Star appearances, 8 gold gloves, 4 Platinum gloves, 2 world series titles, 40% caught stealing rate.... these are the reasons I would support him for HOF. Not 1st ballot by any stretch but someone who eventually will get in. As for WAR, well I am not a big fan of using WAR to compare players from way back when. IMO, he is the 2nd best catcher of this generation behind Buster.

The numbers you cite are below average for catchers who get HOF consideration. There's a reason you only mention his BA of .284. It's because he doesn't walk much has below average power, even for a catcher. The ONLY thing he has offensively is a good, not great, batting average. That's not comparing him to other positions. That's where he is amongst catchers. He needs 400 hits to get top 5 by catchers. He needs that to get in. He will not get in if he fails to have a single offensive positive.

I also don't think being with one team his whole career should matter AT ALL. It doesn't change your numbers, their value, your defense, your ability, anything. It's easier to retain a player with ok numbers, that has great D and wants to play there, then to retain a player with legit HoF numbers who will get paid fat if he became a free agent

Originally posted by skeetskeet:
I also don't think being with one team his whole career should matter AT ALL. It doesn't change your numbers, their value, your defense, your ability, anything. It's easier to retain a player with ok numbers, that has great D and wants to play there, then to retain a player with legit HoF numbers who will get paid fat if he became a free agent

Molina would have gotten a lot of money if he had chosen to become a FA. it isnt like he is making chump change either. He gets 20M per year. But, I understand your point. It doesnt make him a better player obviously.

John, thats fine if you dont like WAR to compare current players to past players. I can kind of get behind that. But for the purposes of this discussion, lets compare fairly modern players to him.

Jason Kendall: (as someone mentioned) Has a WAR of over 4 wins more than Molina, and got 0.5% of the votes for the one season he was on the ballot.

Jorge Posada: Has a WAR of over 5 wins more than Molina, won 5 silver sluggers and 4 rings, and didnt last more than one season on the ballot.

Joe Mauer: Has a WAR of over 17 wins more than Molina and has won an MVP award, and most people (at least in here) dont consider him a HOFer.

Russell Martin: Has a WAR of 1.1 wins less than Molina in 235 less games played, and he will be no where close to a HOFer.

I just think the perception of Yadier Molina far exceeds his actual worth. You keep saying he is an above average hitter, but literally nothing aside from batting average supports that idea. His value is based on his 8 gold gloves. Just because he is a catcher shouldnt mean you need to lower hitting standards by a ridiculous amount to claim he is a HOFer.

Originally posted by DaBum:
The numbers you cite are below average for catchers who get HOF consideration. There's a reason you only mention his BA of .284. It's because he doesn't walk much has below average power, even for a catcher. The ONLY thing he has offensively is a good, not great, batting average. That's not comparing him to other positions. That's where he is amongst catchers. He needs 400 hits to get top 5 by catchers. He needs that to get in. He will not get in if he fails to have a single offensive positive.

Do you not consider defense or is your criteria simply offensive stats? You must have really been upset when Ozzie Smith, with his career .262 batting average and 28 lifetime homers, made the HOF on the FIRST ballot. His post season batting average was .236. His World Series BA in 3 WS was .173.

My opinion is that Smith and Molina were so great on defense at the 2 most important non-pitcher positions on the field (C is first ) that they are deserving even though their offensive numbers arent great.

Molina doesnt need to be top 5 among catchers in hits all time to be worthy of Hall. If he didnt have 8 Gold Gloves and widely considered the best defensive catcher of his generation (until Buster lately) then I would agree.

Ozzie Smith has more than DOUBLE the career WAR that Molina has.

Ozzie Smith had more than DOUBLE the career runs scored that Molina has.

Ozzie Smith had multiple seasons worth of hits more than Molina will have.

Ozzie Smith has 500 more stolen bases than Molina has.

Ozzie Smith has 5 more gold gloves than Molina has.

Ozzie Smith has 7 more All Star teams made than Molina has.

Sorry John, but the two are not comparable.

And Pudge is definitely a better defensive catcher than Molina. By a mile. (I assume you arent considering them the same era?)

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
John, thats fine if you dont like WAR to compare current players to past players. I can kind of get behind that. But for the purposes of this discussion, lets compare fairly modern players to him.

Jason Kendall: (as someone mentioned) Has a WAR of over 4 wins more than Molina, and got 0.5% of the votes for the one season he was on the ballot.

Jorge Posada: Has a WAR of over 5 wins more than Molina, won 5 silver sluggers and 4 rings, and didnt last more than one season on the ballot.

Joe Mauer: Has a WAR of over 17 wins more than Molina and has won an MVP award, and most people (at least in here) dont consider him a HOFer.

Russell Martin: Has a WAR of 1.1 wins less than Molina in 235 less games played, and he will be no where close to a HOFer.

I just think the perception of Yadier Molina far exceeds his actual worth. You keep saying he is an above average hitter, but literally nothing aside from batting average supports that idea. His value is based on his 8 gold gloves. Just because he is a catcher shouldnt mean you need to lower hitting standards by a ridiculous amount to claim he is a HOFer.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Ozzie Smith has more than DOUBLE the career WAR that Molina has.

Ozzie Smith had more than DOUBLE the career runs scored that Molina has.

Ozzie Smith had multiple seasons worth of hits more than Molina will have.

Ozzie Smith has 500 more stolen bases than Molina has.

Ozzie Smith has 5 more gold gloves than Molina has.

Ozzie Smith has 7 more All Star teams made than Molina has.

Sorry John, but the two are not comparable.

Career WAR means nothing to me. But you can go ahead and use it for your opinion. Wont change my mind to be honest. But notice I never said that Ozzie shouldnt be in the HOF. I actually think defense at SS and C should be highly valued and that hitting stats alone dont tell the whole story.

Anyway, it doesnt matter. Yadi's neck tattoos should keep him out.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by DaBum:

The numbers you cite are below average for catchers who get HOF consideration. There's a reason you only mention his BA of .284. It's because he doesn't walk much has below average power, even for a catcher. The ONLY thing he has offensively is a good, not great, batting average. That's not comparing him to other positions. That's where he is amongst catchers. He needs 400 hits to get top 5 by catchers. He needs that to get in. He will not get in if he fails to have a single offensive positive.

Do you not consider defense or is your criteria simply offensive stats? You must have really been upset when Ozzie Smith, with his career .262 batting average and 28 lifetime homers, made the HOF on the FIRST ballot. His post season batting average was .236. His World Series BA in 3 WS was .173.

My opinion is that Smith and Molina were so great on defense at the 2 most important non-pitcher positions on the field (C is first ) that they are deserving even though their offensive numbers arent great.

Molina doesnt need to be top 5 among catchers in hits all time to be worthy of Hall. If he didnt have 8 Gold Gloves and widely considered the best defensive catcher of his generation (until Buster lately) then I would agree.

Did you bother to read my other posts or the one I was directly responding to? The post I replied to said his offensive numbers are only bad when compared to other positions.

Do I have to mention his defense every post to avoid someone thinking I only care about offense or can we be diligent enough to read all posts?

Originally posted by DaBum:
Did you bother to read my other posts or the one I was directly responding to? The post I replied to said his offensive numbers are only bad when compared to other positions.

Do I have to mention his defense every post to avoid someone thinking I only care about offense or can we be diligent enough to read all posts?

No. I typically ignore your posts

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by DaBum:

The numbers you cite are below average for catchers who get HOF consideration. There's a reason you only mention his BA of .284. It's because he doesn't walk much has below average power, even for a catcher. The ONLY thing he has offensively is a good, not great, batting average. That's not comparing him to other positions. That's where he is amongst catchers. He needs 400 hits to get top 5 by catchers. He needs that to get in. He will not get in if he fails to have a single offensive positive.

Do you not consider defense or is your criteria simply offensive stats? You must have really been upset when Ozzie Smith, with his career .262 batting average and 28 lifetime homers, made the HOF on the FIRST ballot. His post season batting average was .236. His World Series BA in 3 WS was .173.

My opinion is that Smith and Molina were so great on defense at the 2 most important non-pitcher positions on the field (C is first ) that they are deserving even though their offensive numbers arent great.

Molina doesnt need to be top 5 among catchers in hits all time to be worthy of Hall. If he didnt have 8 Gold Gloves and widely considered the best defensive catcher of his generation (until Buster lately) then I would agree.

Ozzie is the best defensive SS. As good as Molina is, he isn't close to being the best defensive catcher of all time.

You can ignore WAR completely but please refrain from entering these discussions if you're going to ignore vital stats for comparing players.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by DaBum:

Did you bother to read my other posts or the one I was directly responding to? The post I replied to said his offensive numbers are only bad when compared to other positions.

Do I have to mention his defense every post to avoid someone thinking I only care about offense or can we be diligent enough to read all posts?

No. I typically ignore your posts

Then why are you responding to them? Holy hell. This is asinine. If you are going to ignore posts in a debate then stop talking and leave the debate. This is incredibly dumb.