***2024 MLB Regular Season Thread***

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Its Hall of Fame day. Here is my yearly reminder that Barry Bonds and Andruw Jones should be Hall of Famers, and Omar Vizquel should be no where near it.

f**k Bonds cheating ass bish

Originally posted by Knowledge:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Its Hall of Fame day. Here is my yearly reminder that Barry Bonds and Andruw Jones should be Hall of Famers, and Omar Vizquel should be no where near it.

f**k yeah. Bonds the best player I have ever witnessed play the game.

Fixed

Originally posted by Knowledge:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Its Hall of Fame day. Here is my yearly reminder that Barry Bonds and Andruw Jones should be Hall of Famers, and Omar Vizquel should be no where near it.

f**k Bonds cheating ass bish

This. Also, I'm a Braves fan, and even I'm not sure that Andruw should be in.

Originally posted by BYisGod:
This. Also, I'm a Braves fan, and even I'm not sure that Andruw should be in.

He was an elite player for a decade straight. Best defensive centerfielder ever and has 400 homeruns.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by BYisGod:

This. Also, I'm a Braves fan, and even I'm not sure that Andruw should be in.

He was an elite player for a decade straight. Best defensive centerfielder ever and has 400 homeruns.

Do you read The Athletic? If so, there's a great piece from Joe Posnanski about Jones (and Jim Edmonds) that makes the same arguments you've made and a few others. I highly recommend you check it out.

I think Jones is a tough call. I loved watching him play as a kid. His issues: Batting avg was meh, struck out quite a bit, and his production fell off a cliff. I certainly could see the arguments both ways.

I'll check it out. Thanks.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by BYisGod:
This. Also, I'm a Braves fan, and even I'm not sure that Andruw should be in.

He was an elite player for a decade straight. Best defensive centerfielder ever and has 400 homeruns.

Best defensive CF ever is subjective. Obviously he was an elite defender. I wouldnt put him in the Hall of Fame for a couple of reason:

1) He was a .254 hitter. He would have the lowest BA for any modern day player in the HOF. Harmon Killebrew is closest at .256 but he hit 573 homeruns. Didnt run at all after the age of 24 and struck out over 100 times 11 straight years.

2) He was basically washed up by the age of 31 and only made 5 All Star Teams

I just think he falls short of HOF standards. But thats just an opinion

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by BYisGod:
This. Also, I'm a Braves fan, and even I'm not sure that Andruw should be in.

He was an elite player for a decade straight. Best defensive centerfielder ever and has 400 homeruns.

Best defensive CF ever is subjective. Obviously he was an elite defender. I wouldnt put him in the Hall of Fame for a couple of reason:

1) He was a .254 hitter. He would have the lowest BA for any modern day player in the HOF. Harmon Killebrew is closest at .256 but he hit 573 homeruns. Didnt run at all after the age of 24 and struck out over 100 times 11 straight years.

2) He was basically washed up by the age of 31 and only made 5 All Star Teams

I just think he falls short of HOF standards. But thats just an opinion

I respect your opinion, but let me offer my rebuttals.

Best defensive CF ever is subjective, but when you have people like Willie Mays, Greg Maddux and John Smoltz saying that, I would tend to agree with them. His advanced metrics absolutely crap on everyone elses. I think those stats, combined with the opinions of people we all respect make me 1000% comfortable saying he is the best.

1) Batting average is a tired stat. Most people dont focus on that as much as ops and ops+....both of which view favorably for Andruw Jones. He is right below the average HOF in those two stats.

2) Washed up by 31 isnt something I will penalize him for because he debuted at 19. If he debuted at 23 or 24 like most players during that time, no one would have batted an eye for him being washed up after over a decade of dominance. I never hear someone say "oh well he was washed up at 35" because thats pretty typical. Jones was an elite player for 10 years, All Star Teams or not.

My biggest complaint about the lack of push to the Hall for him is due to the push to the Hall for Omar Vizquel. Jones was every bit as good a defensive CF as Omar was a SS, while advanced metrics say he was substantially better. Omar was a below average hitter for the overwhelming majority of his career, yet his offense isnt held against him like it is held against Andruw. And Andruws numbers dwarf Omars.

I understand Jones is a fairly polarizing case. I typically subscribe to the theory that you shouldnt need to think if a player is a HOFer or not. But my exception is Andruw Jones, because I think people judge the end of his career too harshly and dont glorify the fact he was an elite player for a decade nearly enough.

And as you can probably tell, I value peak hugely.

I don't think Jones is a HOFer either. Wasn't that great of a hitter. Just an amazing fielder.

The voters need to be examined. Nobody elected. You can't tell me there isn't HOF worthy players. The fact that people like Hank Aaron and Cal Ripken don't get 100% of the vote, for example, shows the system is broke. yes I know why some didn't vote for them...that's my point. They shouldn't have to do that with their votes. And now they areay too strict. It's crazy.

Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
I don't think Jones is a HOFer either. Wasn't that great of a hitter. Just an amazing fielder.

That's fine. Your opinion is in line with most of the voters. But seeing him jump 15.5% this vote is very encouraging to me.

Calling him just an amazing fielder is underselling him a ton, IMO.

Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
The voters need to be examined. Nobody elected. You can't tell me there isn't HOF worthy players. The fact that people like Hank Aaron and Cal Ripken don't get 100% of the vote, for example, shows the system is broke. yes I know why some didn't vote for them...that's my point. They shouldn't have to do that with their votes. And now they areay too strict. It's crazy.

I am on board with being strict and only letting the best of the best in. But everyone's definition of the best is very different, which is why voting will always spark such major debates.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by BYisGod:
This. Also, I'm a Braves fan, and even I'm not sure that Andruw should be in.

He was an elite player for a decade straight. Best defensive centerfielder ever and has 400 homeruns.

Best defensive CF ever is subjective. Obviously he was an elite defender. I wouldnt put him in the Hall of Fame for a couple of reason:

1) He was a .254 hitter. He would have the lowest BA for any modern day player in the HOF. Harmon Killebrew is closest at .256 but he hit 573 homeruns. Didnt run at all after the age of 24 and struck out over 100 times 11 straight years.

2) He was basically washed up by the age of 31 and only made 5 All Star Teams

I just think he falls short of HOF standards. But thats just an opinion

I respect your opinion, but let me offer my rebuttals.

Best defensive CF ever is subjective, but when you have people like Willie Mays, Greg Maddux and John Smoltz saying that, I would tend to agree with them. His advanced metrics absolutely crap on everyone elses. I think those stats, combined with the opinions of people we all respect make me 1000% comfortable saying he is the best.

1) Batting average is a tired stat. Most people dont focus on that as much as ops and ops+....both of which view favorably for Andruw Jones. He is right below the average HOF in those two stats.

2) Washed up by 31 isnt something I will penalize him for because he debuted at 19. If he debuted at 23 or 24 like most players during that time, no one would have batted an eye for him being washed up after over a decade of dominance. I never hear someone say "oh well he was washed up at 35" because thats pretty typical. Jones was an elite player for 10 years, All Star Teams or not.

My biggest complaint about the lack of push to the Hall for him is due to the push to the Hall for Omar Vizquel. Jones was every bit as good a defensive CF as Omar was a SS, while advanced metrics say he was substantially better. Omar was a below average hitter for the overwhelming majority of his career, yet his offense isnt held against him like it is held against Andruw. And Andruws numbers dwarf Omars.

I understand Jones is a fairly polarizing case. I typically subscribe to the theory that you shouldnt need to think if a player is a HOFer or not. But my exception is Andruw Jones, because I think people judge the end of his career too harshly and dont glorify the fact he was an elite player for a decade nearly enough.

And as you can probably tell, I value peak hugely.

You nailed it with the bolded sentence. I think HOF players should be obvious. Afterall, its the Hall of Fame and truly meant for the elite of the elite. I do think there have been mistakes and several players worse than Jones are in. But regardless, I just dont think his case is strong enough. Now Bonds, on the other hand, should easily be in even with the steroids issue.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
You nailed it with the bolded sentence. I think HOF players should be obvious. Afterall, its the Hall of Fame and truly meant for the elite of the elite. I do think there have been mistakes and several players worse than Jones are in. But regardless, I just dont think his case is strong enough. Now Bonds, on the other hand, should easily be in even with the steroids issue.

And I believe that Jones is the elite of the elite.

For 10 years, he averaged 34 homeruns, 103 RBIs and 97 runs while playing the best defense the sport has ever seen (GG every year). That is as elite as they come. You could count on one hand how many players in baseball were better than him for that decade straight (and closer to a peace sign, than all 5 fingers).

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

You nailed it with the bolded sentence. I think HOF players should be obvious. Afterall, its the Hall of Fame and truly meant for the elite of the elite. I do think there have been mistakes and several players worse than Jones are in. But regardless, I just dont think his case is strong enough. Now Bonds, on the other hand, should easily be in even with the steroids issue.

And I believe that Jones is the elite of the elite.

For 10 years, he averaged 34 homeruns, 103 RBIs and 97 runs while playing the best defense the sport has ever seen (GG every year). That is as elite as they come. You could count on one hand how many players in baseball were better than him for that decade straight (and closer to a peace sign, than all 5 fingers).

He had a solid 10 year run, but did have several "okay" seasons during that span, 30 HRs 80ish rbis, and a low BA. Only got close to 200 hits once, before that mostly 150ish hits, and not a great OBP either.

If he played in a different era, probably.

Edit: I take back the OBP comment, thought he struck out more. But then his base stealing numbers are extremely low as well for a CF...