2017 NBA Off-Season Thread

Originally posted by gold49digger:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
The opinion that Cleveland got worse is laugahble to me.

imo they are stagnant. IT is damn good but he is basically a shorter kyrie with worse defense. Crowder is a good player but we will see if his effectiveness is due to brad stevens coaching or himself. They set themselves up nicely for the future with the Brooklyn pick. But with the quality of the east Brooklyn might mess around and go to the playoffs haha

Agreed. Thomas, Rose and I'm hearing Wade will join them after his buyout. Lebron wants the floor spaced with shooters but they are bringing in a lot of ball dominant guards.

Crowder was a good addition though. He's obviously a big upgrade over Richard Jefferson.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
I also believe that Kyrie's worth is far greater than that of Thomas. IT is a joke on defense, 3 years older, coming off a hip injury, and now has been traded 3 times and will be playing for his 4th team. Kyrie would never have been traded if he hadn't demanded it.

Saying Thomas and Irving is a wash is silly. There is no NBA executive alive that would take IT over Kyrie straight up. NONE

Nice that you are arguing with yourself on this one....as there hasnt been a person in this thread who has said that.

But you think the two are a wash and that "point guard for point guard its a lateral move". OK.. there is no NBA exec alive that would ever say that. Better?

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Despite the fact that I believe Kyrie is the far better player, I still think it was a good deal for Cleveland simply because of the #1 pick that will almost certainly be a top 5 pick. With Lebron likely leaving they needed to get a young stud for the future. I seriously doubt they ever could have gotten a better deal than this one.

Good trade for both sides in my opinion.

Dont mean to come at you specifically, John....but this opinion has been stated in here a few times now, and no one has been able to answer why.

Every bit of "support" one has brought up to back up that claim, has been nothing more than adjectives and stories.

There is not a single shred of tangible/statistical evidence that supports the idea that Kyrie is "way better" than IT. Not a single thing. If people want to say that Kyrie is younger and IT and that is why they prefer him, fine. It is perfectly acceptable to say you prefer one player to the other. But claims that one player is "vastly superior" or "far better" is based on absolutely nothing.

Of course, if someone wants to continue this debate and support their claims with something factual or measurable, I am happy to continue. But so far, not a single person has brought up anything verifiable to support their opinion.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
But you think the two are a wash and that "point guard for point guard its a lateral move". OK.. there is no NBA exec alive that would ever say that. Better?

No it isnt better. Because you are speaking for people that you have no idea what they are thinking.

IT outperformed Kyrie in almost every measurable way, and did so without the luxury of playing with one of the best players in NBA history. Kyrie and IT are built from the same mold: outstanding scorers, mediocre distributors, and horrible defenders. THAT is why I said its a lateral move. Because what they bring to the table is the exact same thing.

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Yeah we'll just have to agree to disagree. You might be the only one on Earth who believes that swapping Kyrie for IT is a lateral move.

Kyrie is a better player than Isaiah. Defensively alone he is quite a bit better than IT who will always be a massive liability. Boston went from a guy they were hesitant to give a long term deal to, who they very well might have allowed to walkand got back a legit franchise quality player that they can build around. In the short term they got better, in the long term they got better.

In the short term Cleveland got worse, in the long term Cleveland might get the better end of the deal depending on who they draft but in terms of the players traded I will take Irving over IT and a solid role player everyday.

I read a comment that put it perfectly: Kyrie can play defense, but won't and IT wants to play defense but can't. For what it's worth, I'd much rather have Kyrie than IT also.

Even if you don't separate the two much defensively. The biggest difference is it's a lot harder to hide Thomas defensively. Anytime he has to switch on a forward in Pick& Roll he's just at such a massive disadvantage because he's only 5'9.

Originally posted by SFrush:

Even if you don't separate the two much defensively. The biggest difference is it's a lot harder to hide Thomas defensively. Anytime he has to switch on a forward in Pick& Roll he's just at such a massive disadvantage because he's only 5'9.

How is that a big difference if, statistically, not much separates the two? Sure, there is a difference in size. But if that size difference doesnt translate to on the court differences, then is it really a problem?

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Despite the fact that I believe Kyrie is the far better player, I still think it was a good deal for Cleveland simply because of the #1 pick that will almost certainly be a top 5 pick. With Lebron likely leaving they needed to get a young stud for the future. I seriously doubt they ever could have gotten a better deal than this one.

Good trade for both sides in my opinion.

Dont mean to come at you specifically, John....but this opinion has been stated in here a few times now, and no one has been able to answer why.

Every bit of "support" one has brought up to back up that claim, has been nothing more than adjectives and stories.

There is not a single shred of tangible/statistical evidence that supports the idea that Kyrie is "way better" than IT. Not a single thing. If people want to say that Kyrie is younger and IT and that is why they prefer him, fine. It is perfectly acceptable to say you prefer one player to the other. But claims that one player is "vastly superior" or "far better" is based on absolutely nothing.

Of course, if someone wants to continue this debate and support their claims with something factual or measurable, I am happy to continue. But so far, not a single person has brought up anything verifiable to support their opinion.

• Better defender. Not great by any means but IT is a 5 foot 9 joke on defense
• Proven finisher who has hit the big shot to win an NBA title. He came up big at the biggest moment.
• Better career 3 pt shooter.
• Better career shooter on all shots
• More assists per game than Thomas
• More rebounds per game than Thomas
• Kyrie Irving.. 22nd ALL TIME in Playoffs Player Performance Efficiency. Thomas? Couldnt find him in top 250

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Despite the fact that I believe Kyrie is the far better player, I still think it was a good deal for Cleveland simply because of the #1 pick that will almost certainly be a top 5 pick. With Lebron likely leaving they needed to get a young stud for the future. I seriously doubt they ever could have gotten a better deal than this one.

Good trade for both sides in my opinion.

Dont mean to come at you specifically, John....but this opinion has been stated in here a few times now, and no one has been able to answer why.

Every bit of "support" one has brought up to back up that claim, has been nothing more than adjectives and stories.

There is not a single shred of tangible/statistical evidence that supports the idea that Kyrie is "way better" than IT. Not a single thing. If people want to say that Kyrie is younger and IT and that is why they prefer him, fine. It is perfectly acceptable to say you prefer one player to the other. But claims that one player is "vastly superior" or "far better" is based on absolutely nothing.

Of course, if someone wants to continue this debate and support their claims with something factual or measurable, I am happy to continue. But so far, not a single person has brought up anything verifiable to support their opinion.

I'll give it a shot:

IT at 25 years old: 16/4/2/1
KI at 25 years old: 25/6/3/1

IT is in his prime now, while Kyrie still has room to get better.

I'm not completely sold on Kyrie, but his ceiling is higher, he's proven he can perform in the playoffs, and has one skill (ball handling) that is better than any one skill IT has.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
But you think the two are a wash and that "point guard for point guard its a lateral move". OK.. there is no NBA exec alive that would ever say that. Better?

No it isnt better. Because you are speaking for people that you have no idea what they are thinking.

IT outperformed Kyrie in almost every measurable way, and did so without the luxury of playing with one of the best players in NBA history. Kyrie and IT are built from the same mold: outstanding scorers, mediocre distributors, and horrible defenders. THAT is why I said its a lateral move. Because what they bring to the table is the exact same thing.

LOL RIght. I'm sure that someone who knows more than you or I will ever know about basketball would trade Thomas AND throw in Crowder and a probable top 5 pick if he thought IT was as good as Kyrie. They may both be great offensive players and weak defensively but in no way is it a lateral move because of this.

Uh why are some Cetics fans burning their IT21 jerseys? Do they not realize this was a trade?

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

• Better defender. Not great by any means but IT is a 5 foot 9 joke on defense Narrative.
• Proven finisher who has hit the big shot to win an NBA title. He came up big at the biggest moment. Fair point, but IT hasnt gotten to that moment.
• Better career 3 pt shooter. Not talking about career. Talking about now.
• Better career shooter on all shots Not talking about career. Talking about now.
• More assists per game than Thomas Not last year.
• More rebounds per game than Thomas Not a marked difference in a fairly low level importance statistic for point guards
• Kyrie Irving.. 22nd ALL TIME in Playoffs Player Performance Efficiency. Thomas? Couldnt find him in top 250 Huge difference in opportunities would explain this.

We are talking about right this second. And last year, IT's statistically was better than Kyrie in virtually every relevant category.

Originally posted by Arminini:
I'll give it a shot:

IT at 25 years old: 16/4/2/1
KI at 25 years old: 25/6/3/1

IT is in his prime now, while Kyrie still has room to get better.

I'm not completely sold on Kyrie, but his ceiling is higher, he's proven he can perform in the playoffs, and has one skill (ball handling) that is better than any one skill IT has.

Completely irrelevant to who the current player comparison

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by SFrush:
Even if you don't separate the two much defensively. The biggest difference is it's a lot harder to hide Thomas defensively. Anytime he has to switch on a forward in Pick& Roll he's just at such a massive disadvantage because he's only 5'9.

How is that a big difference if, statistically, not much separates the two? Sure, there is a difference in size. But if that size difference doesnt translate to on the court differences, then is it really a problem?

I guess if you choose to ignore the the Celtics were significantly better defensively when Thomas was off the floor.

Originally posted by SFrush:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by SFrush:
Even if you don't separate the two much defensively. The biggest difference is it's a lot harder to hide Thomas defensively. Anytime he has to switch on a forward in Pick& Roll he's just at such a massive disadvantage because he's only 5'9.

How is that a big difference if, statistically, not much separates the two? Sure, there is a difference in size. But if that size difference doesnt translate to on the court differences, then is it really a problem?

I guess if you choose to ignore the the Celtics were significantly better defensively when Thomas was off the floor.

LMAO!!!! So where the Cavs when Irving was off the floor. Hahaha this conversation is too much!

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by SFrush:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by SFrush:
Even if you don't separate the two much defensively. The biggest difference is it's a lot harder to hide Thomas defensively. Anytime he has to switch on a forward in Pick& Roll he's just at such a massive disadvantage because he's only 5'9.

How is that a big difference if, statistically, not much separates the two? Sure, there is a difference in size. But if that size difference doesnt translate to on the court differences, then is it really a problem?

I guess if you choose to ignore the the Celtics were significantly better defensively when Thomas was off the floor.

LMAO!!!! So where the Cavs when Irving was off the floor. Hahaha this conversation is too much!

The gap wasn't this big. Boston was nine points better defensively whenever Thomas sat on the bench
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612738/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
I also believe that Kyrie's worth is far greater than that of Thomas. IT is a joke on defense, 3 years older, coming off a hip injury, and now has been traded 3 times and will be playing for his 4th team. Kyrie would never have been traded if he hadn't demanded it.

Saying Thomas and Irving is a wash is silly. There is no NBA executive alive that would take IT over Kyrie straight up. NONE

Nice that you are arguing with yourself on this one....as there hasnt been a person in this thread who has said that.

I wouldn't take IT over Kyrie...

One guy is a lazy defender but has ability when it matters...the other is the worst defender in the league at his position and because of his height he'll never be any better. The Hip is also a scary situation for a guy who takes a lot of hits. Kyrie is also under contract for atleast two more seasons and IT wants anyone to "Bring the brinks truck" with negociations.