When all is said and done the NBA GOAT is..........

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
You avoided both of the questions I asked.

Read my comment closer, to be considered as one of the greats you have to be under that big spotlight, and produce.

I've seen Russell play. Dude was amazing. He looked like a man amongst boys. But he also played in a small league and against crap competition compared to the modern league. Put him in today's game and he isn't walking away with 11 championships. I have no doubt he'd still be a baller. But he wouldn't be pulling in 40 rebound games like he did in his era.


Rish talking down to people like he's the greatest observer of basketball talent we've ever been graced to listen to. lol

Originally posted by StOnEy333:
I've seen Russell play. Dude was amazing. He looked like a man amongst boys. But he also played in a small league and against crap competition compared to the modern league. Put him in today's game and he isn't walking away with 11 championships. I have no doubt he'd still be a baller. But he wouldn't be pulling in 40 rebound games like he did in his era.

Rish talking down to people like he's the greatest observer of basketball talent we've ever been graced to listen to. lol

I know I am but what are you.

Originally posted by RishikeshA:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
You avoided both of the questions I asked.

Read my comment closer, to be considered as one of the greats you have to be under that big spotlight, and produce.

I read your comment and you still didnt answer my questions. Go back and look at what I asked you.

Rish, do you not recognize that saying that Russell is the benchmark for any GOAT discussion is silly if you are just using the 11 rings as your criteria? The fact that there were only 8 teams in the league for most of his NBA career doesnt matter? The fact that he played with 7 Hall of Fame players and that the Celtics were incredibly superior in talent to everyone else also is irrelevant to you?

No one would ever say that Russell wasnt a great player but he isnt the GOAT. Not even with his 11 rings.

Originally posted by RishikeshA:

For all of you that say Russell was not on the list for GOAT, did any of you actually see him play?

PS, Stoney, did you ever see Bill Russell play, yeah I thought so.

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

I've seen Russell play. Dude was amazing. He looked like a man amongst boys. But he also played in a small league and against crap competition compared to the modern league. Put him in today's game and he isn't walking away with 11 championships. I have no doubt he'd still be a baller. But he wouldn't be pulling in 40 rebound games like he did in his era.


Rish talking down to people like he's the greatest observer of basketball talent we've ever been graced to listen to. lol

Lol got heem

Some of you living too much in the moment...Lebron never was and will never be the finisher, the killer MJ was.

LBJ not even on the same level as MJ defensively.

LBJ was 309 in defensive win shares this season and didn't receive any consideration for all defense team. He hasn't made an all defense team since making the second team in 2014. His defense has been falling off for years now. He can still make a highlight reel as far as doing a helpside/transition block, but his on ball D is terrible now.

MJ was 6th in defensive win shares at age 35 in his sixth title run in Chicago and was first team all defense not only that year but every full season he played from 1988 when he was DPOY straight through til his Bulls retirement. He never fell off defensively and his numbers as a 40 yr old (not the real MJ obv) in Washington were better than LBJ's this season.

Part of MJ being the GOAT is that he was hands down the greatest defensive two guard of all time and never had a dip in his defense the way LBJ has fallen off a cliff defensively. LBJ and the Cavs were terrible all season, and he has specifically been called out for his lack of defensive effort in this playoffs by Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Jackson who normally sing his praises. He got destroyed defensively in the 2011 Finals by the Mavs. People like to say he's a defensive unicorn or something that can guard every position, but he didn't do a damn thing to JJ Barea, Jet Terry, or Dirk in those Finals. Jason Terry literally called him out in the press and then danced on him for 4 straight games. That was worse than only scoring 8 points in a Finals game lol. Same thing in the 2014 Spurs Finals when Kawhi shot 67% against him for the series when the Spurs blew them out by a record Finals margin. LBJ piled up some nice stats in the second halves of those games when the games were already out of hand. We all saw what the Ws did to him defensively in the Finals last year. It wasn't just KD, the whole team shot over 65% against him when he was defending them.

We living in the juiced ball era of the NBA, so everyone can rack up offensive stats like Russell Westbrook. I wish we could have seen MJ play in a no handcheck league, but even with handchecking he led the league in scoring 10x while also leading the league in steals 3x and winning DPOY while being first team all defense 9x. That's just insane. No disrespect to LBJ, because he is an all time great, but people are losing their minds with this comparison because he's on ESPN all day long now. And hey, he has had great series against some Western teams, but let's be real about the weak ass East he has played in his whole career. MJ got blocked from the Finals by the Bird Celtics and the Bad Boys or he would have had more titles. Now you can make it to the ECF and face a Boston team that is missing its two superstar players and is led by a rookie because that's how weak the East is.

MJ is the Goat but let's not get too crazy. You can't give credit to MJ on offense by saying he played when hand checking was allowed and then also give him credit on defense. Imagine if Lebron was allowed to handcheck.

Plus, 90s didn't have shooters like we have today. Lot easier to play defense when you know no one is gonna pull up from 27ft for a jumper.

As Kerr said on TNT a while back - before he became HC - Lebron would be even more dominant in the 90s than he's today because you wouldn't be able to stop him with handcheck (bigger, stronger and faster) and you couldn't play zone defense back then.

Lebron has been to playoffs 13 times. Jordan went to playoffs 13 times too.
Lebron has higher DWS, WS and VORP than Jordan. Frankly, it's not that close either

Yes, Lebron does take plays off on defense - but he doesn't have Pippen run the offense and Rodman dominate on glass. He doesn't have the luxury to just focus on scoring and defend.

So much for Lebron's defense fallen off the cliff:

Talents like MJ and Lebron are going to light up any era their in. How they'd transition is not a concern but their weaknesses would show up too. Lebron has a career 34% shot percentage outside the paint in the postseason. Teams back then would rough him up inside in a much more physical game and try to get him shoot some jumpers. On Jordan's end he'd likely have to improve his 3 point shooting today which was streaky back then.

The NBA, like all other sports, evolves over time. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, and overall much better than they were 20 years ago. The pool of talent that the NBA pulls from is also far larger than at any other time. 20 years ago there were only a handful of European NBA players and almost none from other parts of the world. Now it's so common that Luka Doncic could be #1 overall. What does all this mean? All the plumbers that played in the 80s and 90s have been weeded out. You really have to be elite to make it to the NBA. In the US, you have professional training for future prospects starting in 6th grade. These guys breathe and eat basketball all year round. Just check out IG pages like ballislife or slamhoops. Ball really is life. I don't have the combine numbers in front of me, but I read somewhere about how much the average vertical for these prospects has improved, 40 times have come down, etc. The players today are light years ahead in every way. The whole argument about it supposedly being a tougher league is based on pure sentiment. It's literaly things people say to make their experiences seem more relevant.

Originally posted by Leathaface:
The NBA, like all other sports, evolves over time. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, and overall much better than they were 20 years ago. The pool of talent that the NBA pulls from is also far larger than at any other time. 20 years ago there were only a handful of European NBA players and almost none from other parts of the world. Now it's so common that Luka Doncic could be #1 overall. What does all this mean? All the plumbers that played in the 80s and 90s have been weeded out. You really have to be elite to make it to the NBA. In the US, you have professional training for future prospects starting in 6th grade. These guys breathe and eat basketball all year round. Just check out IG pages like ballislife or slamhoops. Ball really is life. I don't have the combine numbers in front of me, but I read somewhere about how much the average vertical for these prospects has improved, 40 times have come down, etc. The players today are light years ahead in every way. The whole argument about it supposedly being a tougher league is based on pure sentiment. It's literaly things people say to make their experiences seem more relevant.

If this is the case why the f**k can't these b***hes make their free throws and understand basic fundamentals?

Originally posted by 49erminion:

Originally posted by Leathaface:

The NBA, like all other sports, evolves over time. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, and overall much better than they were 20 years ago. The pool of talent that the NBA pulls from is also far larger than at any other time. 20 years ago there were only a handful of European NBA players and almost none from other parts of the world. Now it's so common that Luka Doncic could be #1 overall. What does all this mean? All the plumbers that played in the 80s and 90s have been weeded out. You really have to be elite to make it to the NBA. In the US, you have professional training for future prospects starting in 6th grade. These guys breathe and eat basketball all year round. Just check out IG pages like ballislife or slamhoops. Ball really is life. I don't have the combine numbers in front of me, but I read somewhere about how much the average vertical for these prospects has improved, 40 times have come down, etc. The players today are light years ahead in every way. The whole argument about it supposedly being a tougher league is based on pure sentiment. It's literaly things people say to make their experiences seem more relevant.

If this is the case why the f**k can't these b***hes make their free throws and understand basic fundamentals?

People missed crucial FTs in every era but yes JR Smith is a once in a lifetime bonehead. He transcends eras.

Originally posted by jcs:

Some of you living too much in the moment...Lebron never was and will never be the finisher, the killer MJ was.

Absolutely will never be the killer MJ was as a player

Originally posted by Leathaface:

The NBA, like all other sports, evolves over time. Players are bigger, faster, stronger, and overall much better than they were 20 years ago. The pool of talent that the NBA pulls from is also far larger than at any other time. 20 years ago there were only a handful of European NBA players and almost none from other parts of the world. Now it's so common that Luka Doncic could be #1 overall. What does all this mean? All the plumbers that played in the 80s and 90s have been weeded out. You really have to be elite to make it to the NBA. In the US, you have professional training for future prospects starting in 6th grade. These guys breathe and eat basketball all year round. Just check out IG pages like ballislife or slamhoops. Ball really is life. I don't have the combine numbers in front of me, but I read somewhere about how much the average vertical for these prospects has improved, 40 times have come down, etc. The players today are light years ahead in every way. The whole argument about it supposedly being a tougher league is based on pure sentiment. It's literaly things people say to make their experiences seem more relevant.

That works both ways. Jordan played against plumbers, Jordan played with plumbers. Lebron plays against tougher competition, Lebron plays with that same talent. It's not an excuse for Lebron to lose more than him especially when he's bouncing around the league trying to scheme a way to end up on the team with the most talent.

Can you really make the argument it's harder to win today when the same 2 teams have been in the Finals the past 4 years? The league has always heavily skewed to the top 3 superstars and that still remains.

The point I made was the league was more physical. As in they allowed harder fouls. More bumping not the guys are more athletic.