When all is said and done the NBA GOAT is..........

Originally posted by 4ML:

I don't think so...but, Iverson and Lebron (twice) took really s**tty teams to the NBA Finals. Those runs were pretty impressive.

Or Eric Snow is a baller. Jk

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by 49erminion:
in any team sport in the history of team sports has there ever been a player who has led her team to win it all with s**tty teammates?

I don't think so...but, Iverson and Lebron (twice) took really s**tty teams to the NBA Finals. Those runs were pretty impressive.

True, and just looking at the summary stats, even though they got swept, those games against the Spurs in his first NBA Finals were rather close. On the flip side, he should have beaten the Mavs with Wade and Bosh and this trio should not have been embarrassed by the Spurs in '14

Originally posted by 49erminion:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by 49erminion:

in any team sport in the history of team sports has there ever been a player who has led her team to win it all with s**tty teammates?

I don't think so...but, Iverson and Lebron (twice) took really s**tty teams to the NBA Finals. Those runs were pretty impressive.

True, and just looking at the summary stats, even though they got swept, those games against the Spurs in his first NBA Finals were rather close. On the flip side, he should have beaten the Mavs with Wade and Bosh and this trio should not have been embarrassed by the Spurs in '14

I was never that impressed with those Miami teams. Bosh was basically like Love, both could put up meaningless stats, but they never had a big impact on their teams, at least record wise when they were the go to player.

Wade i love as a player, but he wasn't the same Wade anymore. That wasn't a secret around the league. The player that Wade was with and before Shaq was completely different with Bron.

Steph curry

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Again, I said "BY HIMSELF". Nobody ever said "LeBron doesn't elevate his teammates". I said he doesn't elevate his teammates by himself. He always has stars around him to help. The entire "Without Pippen Jordan has no titles" is a terrible pro-LeBron point, because without Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and AD, LeBron has no titles.

+ Show all quotes
That's not the point tho.

Jordan is under .500 in regular season without Pippen. He has won 1 playoff game without Pippen.

As Jordan said - he never won anything without Pippen.

Jordan only played his first 3 years and his last 2 years of his career without Pippen, and those rosters were crappy. He was very young and very old in those circumstances. It had far more to do with those factors than whether or not Pippen was there. LeBron fanboys reach so hard to try and bring Jordan down.

That's really the point. Context. You applied context to why Jordan never won without Pippen. There is context why Jordan is 6-0 in finals - because they never played an elite healthy team in the finals and why Lebron is 4-6 because he has almost always played an elite team in the finals (minus the Heat in 2020).

LOL. So now the competition in the 90's was inferior? Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Kemp, Stockton, Malone, all pushovers in the Finals huh? LeBron's own mother would be less biased than you. People who didn't witness Jordan's career and who identify as LeBron's biggest fan just don't have a credible opinion on this subject.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Niners99:
Again, I said "BY HIMSELF". Nobody ever said "LeBron doesn't elevate his teammates". I said he doesn't elevate his teammates by himself. He always has stars around him to help. The entire "Without Pippen Jordan has no titles" is a terrible pro-LeBron point, because without Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and AD, LeBron has no titles.

That's not the point tho.

Jordan is under .500 in regular season without Pippen. He has won 1 playoff game without Pippen.

As Jordan said - he never won anything without Pippen.

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Jordan only played his first 3 years and his last 2 years of his career without Pippen, and those rosters were crappy. He was very young and very old in those circumstances. It had far more to do with those factors than whether or not Pippen was there. LeBron fanboys reach so hard to try and bring Jordan down.

That's really the point. Context. You applied context to why Jordan never won without Pippen. There is context why Jordan is 6-0 in finals - because they never played an elite healthy team in the finals and why Lebron is 4-6 because he has almost always played an elite team in the finals (minus the Heat in 2020).

LOL. So now the competition in the 90's was inferior? Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Kemp, Stockton, Malone, all pushovers in the Finals huh? LeBron's own mother would be less biased than you. People who didn't witness Jordan's career and who identify as LeBron's biggest fan just don't have a credible opinion on this subject.

these young nephews have no respect for the history of the game that they claim they love so much.

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by 49erminion:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by 49erminion:

in any team sport in the history of team sports has there ever been a player who has led her team to win it all with s**tty teammates?

+ Show all quotes
I don't think so...but, Iverson and Lebron (twice) took really s**tty teams to the NBA Finals. Those runs were pretty impressive.

True, and just looking at the summary stats, even though they got swept, those games against the Spurs in his first NBA Finals were rather close. On the flip side, he should have beaten the Mavs with Wade and Bosh and this trio should not have been embarrassed by the Spurs in '14

I was never that impressed with those Miami teams. Bosh was basically like Love, both could put up meaningless stats, but they never had a big impact on their teams, at least record wise when they were the go to player.

Wade i love as a player, but he wasn't the same Wade anymore. That wasn't a secret around the league. The player that Wade was with and before Shaq was completely different with Bron.

Yet they won back to back ships in '12 & '13

Originally posted by Niners99:
LOL. So now the competition in the 90's was inferior? Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Kemp, Stockton, Malone, all pushovers in the Finals huh? LeBron's own mother would be less biased than you. People who didn't witness Jordan's career and who identify as LeBron's biggest fan just don't have a credible opinion on this subject.

That Lakers team had multiple injuries. Doubt Bulls beats Lakers of the 80s with Kareem, Magic, Worthy and Cooper in their primes and healthy.

And, I'm sorry - 90s was watered down. Doesn't mean the superstars were weak but teams were watered down due to expansion. Average players weren't as good as average players today.

Stockton was clearly not the same player either when they faced Bulls in the Finals. Malone was still great. Bulls had Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Ron Harper, Tony Kukoc, and Steve Kerr as spot up shooter. That team was almost unbeatable.

I have posted actual quotes from Jerry Sloan and Larry Bird - who both said 90s were watered down due to expansion. Julius Erwing also said the same thing. So, I'm not sure how I am biased.

And I did watch Jordan's career lool...another wrong assumption.

Originally posted by 49erminion:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by 49erminion:
in any team sport in the history of team sports has there ever been a player who has led her team to win it all with s**tty teammates?

I don't think so...but, Iverson and Lebron (twice) took really s**tty teams to the NBA Finals. Those runs were pretty impressive.

True, and just looking at the summary stats, even though they got swept, those games against the Spurs in his first NBA Finals were rather close. On the flip side, he should have beaten the Mavs with Wade and Bosh and this trio should not have been embarrassed by the Spurs in '14

That Mavs team swept the defending champs Lakers. They gentleman swept the OKC in conf. finals. They had amazing chemistry and hot super hot from 3 at the right time and just blew by everyone.

Obviously, Lebron had a terrible series. Mavs basically did what Heat did to Giannis - and Lebron had no trust in his jumper. For me - that is the ONLY negative on his resume. He really f**ked that one up. But, I think he needed that to humble up and realize that you can't win on talent and superior physical traits only.

As for Spurs in 2014 Finals - that Spurs team was loaded and Wade was struggling with his knee throughout the playoffs. He was struggling with his knee in 2013 playoffs too but 2014 was really bad.

Originally posted by 49erminion:

Originally posted by TheGore49er:

Originally posted by 49erminion:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by 49erminion:

in any team sport in the history of team sports has there ever been a player who has led her team to win it all with s**tty teammates?

I don't think so...but, Iverson and Lebron (twice) took really s**tty teams to the NBA Finals. Those runs were pretty impressive.

+ Show all quotes
True, and just looking at the summary stats, even though they got swept, those games against the Spurs in his first NBA Finals were rather close. On the flip side, he should have beaten the Mavs with Wade and Bosh and this trio should not have been embarrassed by the Spurs in '14

I was never that impressed with those Miami teams. Bosh was basically like Love, both could put up meaningless stats, but they never had a big impact on their teams, at least record wise when they were the go to player.

Wade i love as a player, but he wasn't the same Wade anymore. That wasn't a secret around the league. The player that Wade was with and before Shaq was completely different with Bron.

Yet they won back to back ships in '12 & '13

They better. They had Bron in his prime and Wade was still a good player. But overall, that team wasnt that great. Mario Chalmbers made a big shot, otherwise, he was bad. I did like Haslem though.

Originally posted by 4ML:

That Lakers team had multiple injuries. Doubt Bulls beats Lakers of the 80s with Kareem, Magic, Worthy and Cooper in their primes and healthy.

And, I'm sorry - 90s was watered down. Doesn't mean the superstars were weak but teams were watered down due to expansion. Average players weren't as good as average players today.

Stockton was clearly not the same player either when they faced Bulls in the Finals. Malone was still great. Bulls had Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Ron Harper, Tony Kukoc, and Steve Kerr as spot up shooter. That team was almost unbeatable.

I have posted actual quotes from Jerry Sloan and Larry Bird - who both said 90s were watered down due to expansion. Julius Erwing also said the same thing. So, I'm not sure how I am biased.

And I did watch Jordan's career lool...another wrong assumption.

As a Jazz fan who actually watched the team throughout the 90's, I can tell you that Stockton might not have been in his prime in the Finals years, but he was playing extremely well. Go look at his 1996-97 western conference finals against Houston.

Originally posted by Niners99:

As a Jazz fan who actually watched the team throughout the 90's, I can tell you that Stockton might not have been in his prime in the Finals years, but he was playing extremely well. Go look at his 1996-97 western conference finals against Houston.

Obviously I respect your opinion on Jazz. I watched the Jazz a decent amount. They were the team I was rooting for in the West and Pacers in the East. Stockton and Reggie Miller were two of my favorite players.

But, HOFers don't fall off the cliff - especially the ones with high IQ like Stockton. They decline slowly. He was still really good but not his absolutely peak good. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Niners99:

As a Jazz fan who actually watched the team throughout the 90's, I can tell you that Stockton might not have been in his prime in the Finals years, but he was playing extremely well. Go look at his 1996-97 western conference finals against Houston.

Obviously I respect your opinion on Jazz. I watched the Jazz a decent amount. They were the team I was rooting for in the West and Pacers in the East. Stockton and Reggie Miller were two of my favorite players.

But, HOFers don't fall off the cliff - especially the ones with high IQ like Stockton. They decline slowly. He was still really good but not his absolutely peak good. Just my opinion.

The Jazz as a team were peaking, which is what matters. Stockton was playing at a high level. Seems weird to try and downplay Jordan's success by saying specific players weren't at their absolute peak individually. Barkley was the MVP the year Jordan beat the Suns. He just made everyone else look inferior.

I remember 90's basketball well. I remember Jordan's career well, and ive seen LeBron's career from the start. They arent the same. Jordan was a different dude. Its not knocking LeBron to say that, there was just a noticeable difference that cant be ignored.

Originally posted by Niners99:

The Jazz as a team were peaking, which is what matters. Stockton was playing at a high level. Seems weird to try and downplay Jordan's success by saying specific players weren't at their absolute peak individually. Barkley was the MVP the year Jordan beat the Suns. He just made everyone else look inferior.

I remember 90's basketball well. I remember Jordan's career well, and ive seen LeBron's career from the start. They arent the same. Jordan was a different dude. Its not knocking LeBron to say that, there was just a noticeable difference that cant be ignored.

I also remember 90s basketball. I also think Lebron and Jordan is different. We just have reached diff conclusion. It's not that big of a deal. Difference perspective.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Niners99:

As a Jazz fan who actually watched the team throughout the 90's, I can tell you that Stockton might not have been in his prime in the Finals years, but he was playing extremely well. Go look at his 1996-97 western conference finals against Houston.

Obviously I respect your opinion on Jazz. I watched the Jazz a decent amount. They were the team I was rooting for in the West and Pacers in the East. Stockton and Reggie Miller were two of my favorite players.

But, HOFers don't fall off the cliff - especially the ones with high IQ like Stockton. They decline slowly. He was still really good but not his absolutely peak good. Just my opinion.

The Jazz as a team were peaking, which is what matters. Stockton was playing at a high level. Seems weird to try and downplay Jordan's success by saying specific players weren't at their absolute peak individually. Barkley was the MVP the year Jordan beat the Suns. He just made everyone else look inferior.

I remember 90's basketball well. I remember Jordan's career well, and ive seen LeBron's career from the start. They arent the same. Jordan was a different dude. Its not knocking LeBron to say that, there was just a noticeable difference that cant be ignored.

Barkley never had the same talent around him that Jordan did. No teams during the 90s did. Let alone the goat coach. Bulls were the only team in the 90s with what we now call a big 3. Especially during the 2nd three peat. No team came close to that talent.