***2019 NBA OFF-SEASON***

Originally posted by DaBum:
Can? Sure Westbrook is capable ... but he doesnt. Paul is head and shoulders better defensively than Westbrook. Paul can struggle against a super quick guard hut he might be the smartest defender in the league. He is great at using his strength and lower center of gravity to bully other guards. He's also tremendous when forced to swap to a bigger wing.

Westbrook slacks on defense often and constantly abandons his assignment chasing rebounds.

YEP. I can tell you that Steph Curry would rather go against Westbrook any day than Chris Paul.

I don't remember Paul being any good on defense.

Originally posted by mayo49:
I don't remember Paul being any good on defense.

Perhaps you should have actually watched some games.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by mayo49:
I don't remember Paul being any good on defense.

Perhaps you should have actually watched some games.

True.

I actually believe Chris Paul has always been fairly overrated on defense. However, the effort and gambling that leads to turnovers is always top notch.

I always thought Westbrook could play good defense if he tried even a lick. One thing is for sure, CP has always been better than Russ defensively.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by DaBum:

Can? Sure Westbrook is capable ... but he doesnt. Paul is head and shoulders better defensively than Westbrook. Paul can struggle against a super quick guard hut he might be the smartest defender in the league. He is great at using his strength and lower center of gravity to bully other guards. He's also tremendous when forced to swap to a bigger wing.

Westbrook slacks on defense often and constantly abandons his assignment chasing rebounds.

YEP. I can tell you that Steph Curry would rather go against Westbrook any day than Chris Paul.

Paul is particularly good against Steph. Knows how to bump him, pull him and wear him down fighting for space. Paul also did pretty well against Klay because Klay wasn't quick enough to go by and Paul is strong enough to bully Klay to a degree.

I find it funny people are saying a never been on an All-NBA D team in 11 years is better than a diminished but still very good all time great. Paul is the 2nd best defensive PG of all-time with Gary Payton No. 1. He's fallen off but he's closer to his peak than being a has been.

And yeah, I've watched Paul more than anyone else on this board the past two years so I know what I'm talking about.

The long and the short of Summer League.

Originally posted by Bluesbro:
The long and the short of Summer League.

Tacko is huge.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
I actually believe Chris Paul has always been fairly overrated on defense. However, the effort and gambling that leads to turnovers is always top notch.

I always thought Westbrook could play good defense if he tried even a lick. One thing is for sure, CP has always been better than Russ defensively.

I dont know about being overrated. All I know is that Paul has always been extremely effective guarding Steph and not many guys can say that. I just dont know what PGs have been better over the past decade to be honest.

So we have Gore and Sac who think Westbrook is far better defensively than Paul at this point while there are several who disagree. Any one else?

Thank you SteveWallace for essentially agreeing with Gore and I. Gore is a super knowledgeable NBA poster, and he knows his stuff. He and I agree that going into next year Westbrook can be a MUCH, MUCH better defender than the old, slow, nonathletic (relatively speaking) cp3.

I looked at some numbers. Advanced stats in the NBA are complex, and there are many. You can find an advanced stat of your liking to further a debate you may be having. For example, defensive rating attempts to measure points allowed per 100 possessions. Cool, this is the formula:

Stops1 = STL + BLK * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + DRB * (1 - FMwt)FMwt = (DFG% * (1 - DOR%)) / (DFG% * (1 - DOR%) + (1 - DFG%) * DOR%)DOR% = Opponent_ORB / (Opponent_ORB + Team_DRB)DFG% = Opponent_FGM / Opponent_FGAStops2 = (((Opponent_FGA - Opponent_FGM - Team_BLK) / Team_MP) * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + ((Opponent_TOV - Team_STL) / Team_MP)) * MP + (PF / Team_PF) * 0.4 * Opponent_FTA * (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2

These stats have many flaws. But I would like to point out that Russ and cp3 have almost the same defensive rating. Cp3's is a couple of points better, but proportionally out of a 100 points, that minuscule difference is not a powerful statement. I think we would all agree that defensive rebounding is important right? Call me old school, but limiting offensive possessions is important. Russ averages two and a half more rebounds per game than cp3. Their steals per game is the same, and Russ' blocks are a bit higher.

The NBA is a young man's game and athleticism is paramount. Cp3 is a gambler on defense and now at his old age it won't work as well. He is a shell of himself. There is a reason why his trade market is nonexistent outside of Miami according to reports. He is being paid like an elite PG when he isn't close to that now. Harden is thrilled to see him pack up and leave.

I want to provide some context on defensive rating, and the advanced stats that millennials love. Kawhi Leonard was ranked 77 filtered for forwards in the eastern conference, not the entire league or all positions. Even going that granular, Kawhi is 77. Come on. We all know that Kawhi is an elite defender. That stat is nonsense.

You're still my boy, John.

Edit: Russel Westbrook is a player that stirs emotion in fans. Look at what happened in Utah this season. Not calling out John or anyone specifically on The Zone, I haven't seen anyone scorn Russ emotionally on here but a lot of people flat out don't like him. He handles the media differently than most and is easy to root against for some. With that said, it seems as if Russ' talents are taken for granted. Hard to have an unbiased convo about dude.

Originally posted by MuggD:

f**king stud, and he is ours Muggs

Originally posted by sacniner:

Originally posted by MuggD:

f**king stud, and he is ours Muggs

Originally posted by sacniner:
Thank you SteveWallace for essentially agreeing with Gore and I. Gore is a super knowledgeable NBA poster, and he knows his stuff. He and I agree that going into next year Westbrook can be a MUCH, MUCH better defender than the old, slow, nonathletic (relatively speaking) cp3.

I looked at some numbers. Advanced stats in the NBA are complex, and there are many. You can find an advanced stat of your liking to further a debate you may be having. For example, defensive rating attempts to measure points allowed per 100 possessions. Cool, this is the formula:

Stops1 = STL + BLK * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + DRB * (1 - FMwt)FMwt = (DFG% * (1 - DOR%)) / (DFG% * (1 - DOR%) + (1 - DFG%) * DOR%)DOR% = Opponent_ORB / (Opponent_ORB + Team_DRB)DFG% = Opponent_FGM / Opponent_FGAStops2 = (((Opponent_FGA - Opponent_FGM - Team_BLK) / Team_MP) * FMwt * (1 - 1.07 * DOR%) + ((Opponent_TOV - Team_STL) / Team_MP)) * MP + (PF / Team_PF) * 0.4 * Opponent_FTA * (1 - (Opponent_FTM / Opponent_FTA))^2

These stats have many flaws. But I would like to point out that Russ and cp3 have almost the same defensive rating. Cp3's is a couple of points better, but proportionally out of a 100 points, that minuscule difference is not a powerful statement. I think we would all agree that defensive rebounding is important right? Call me old school, but limiting offensive possessions is important. Russ averages two and a half more rebounds per game than cp3. Their steals per game is the same, and Russ' blocks are a bit higher.

The NBA is a young man's game and athleticism is paramount. Cp3 is a gambler on defense and now at his old age it won't work as well. He is a shell of himself. There is a reason why his trade market is nonexistent outside of Miami according to reports. He is being paid like an elite PG when he isn't close to that now. Harden is thrilled to see him pack up and leave.

I want to provide some context on defensive rating, and the advanced stats that millennials love. Kawhi Leonard was ranked 77 filtered for forwards in the eastern conference, not the entire league or all positions. Even going that granular, Kawhi is 77. Come on. We all know that Kawhi is an elite defender. That stat is nonsense.

You're still my boy, John.

Edit: Russel Westbrook is a player that stirs emotion in fans. Look at what happened in Utah this season. Not calling out John or anyone specifically on The Zone, I haven't seen anyone scorn Russ emotionally on here but a lot of people flat out don't like him. He handles the media differently than most and is easy to root against for some. With that said, it seems as if Russ' talents are taken for granted. Hard to have an unbiased convo about dude.

You can call me out Sac. Doesnt bother me. However, you might want to read Steve's post again. You know... the part where he says "One thing is for sure, CP has always been better than Russ defensively."

So far you are outnumbered with your take my friend. Still waiting for others to come in and say that Westbrook is WAY WAY WAY better on defense like you said.

BTW.. pretty funny that you included rebounds and put that in bold as if it should count for playing defense

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
You can call me out Sac. Doesnt bother me. However, you might want to read Steve's post again. You know... the part where he says "One thing is for sure, CP has always been better than Russ defensively."

So far you are outnumbered with your take my friend. Still waiting for others to come in and say that Westbrook is WAY WAY WAY better on defense like you said.

BTW.. pretty funny that you included rebounds and put that in bold as if it should count for playing defense

Haha, yes I did selectively read Steve's post

IMO, defensive rebounding is a very important part of playing defense. Offensive rebounding wins a lot of games. Limiting possessions is really important. I may place a higher value on it than you. Russ is a WAY better rebounder than cp3.

Good talking basketball with you my dude.

Gimme Russ over cp3 any day that ends in y...