Originally posted by TheGore49er:
a HOF player should be able to help their team get more than 15 wins. i havent looked, but i doubt i will find too many players, at least during the modern era, who were at the prime of their career and their team struggled this badly.
This season's Warrior squad is an expansion-level team with all the injuries. It's no surprise that they are struggling this badly considering this is historically one of the worst teams talent-wise. It's a limited sample size but Steph is 1-4 with this roster. 3 of those 4 losses were by double-digit scores (28, 19, and 11 point blowouts). His only win was against an 0-4 Pelicans team that was starting 3 backups (Zion and Jrue were out). I know it's a small sample size but given how bad the team has looked even with Steph, it's reasonable to project that this losing trend would continue regardless of having a HOF player. I don't think anybody can be expected to carry this team to a respectable record single-handedly, HOF-caliber or not.
Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Green won bc of Klay and Steph. Without them, they are 15-49.
This season's record isn't proof of Draymond's inability to win without them. There's a lot of reasons why the record is the way it is. It's true that missing the Splash Brothers is a factor but it's not the
only one. You can't just point out the guys who
aren't playing without also considering the guys who
are playing with him. Look at Green's supporting cast (starters) most of this season:
PG- DLo only played 33 games before getting traded (yes, he's a good player but didn't fit this system). For almost half the season, the Warriors started a combination of Jordan Poole and Ky Bowman. Poole is a 20 year old rookie averaging
8.8 ppg on .333% shooting. Bowman is an undrafted rookie averaging
7.4 ppg.
SG- Damion Lee, a former 3rd stringer averaging
12.7 ppg this season (
6.8 ppg career before becoming a starter this year)
SF- Glenn Robinson, a career backup averaging
12.9 ppg this season (
4.4 ppg career before becoming a starter this year)
C- Combination of Cauley-Stein (1st round bust averaging
7.9 ppg this year/
9.6 ppg career) and Chriss (1st round bust averaging
9.3 ppg this year/
7.6 ppg career prior, although he's been improving and playing better in this system)
Mind you, these are/were the
starters for most of the season. Other than DLo and Wiggins, the rest of the active roster has consisted of career backups, busts, G-League players, and guys signed off the street to 10-day contracts.
Also, Draymond has only played in 60% of the games this season and his minutes have been limited/managed in half of those starts. In the games where he played at least 30+ minutes this season, the Warriors have a record of 8-13 with an average win margin of 9.25 points. Included in those wins is a 12 point victory over a fully healthy Rockets team (who were 21-10 at the time). Considering his supporting cast this season, that's pretty impressive.
Originally posted by TheGore49er:
if you can't even average 10 ppg, I'm sorry, but that's not HOF numbers.
There's a difference between
can't and
doesn't:
-Draymond
can average 10 ppg. As a full time starter, he averages 10.7 ppg in the regular season and 13.3 ppg in the playoffs.
-He
doesn't average 10 ppg over his career because the numbers are skewed from his rookie and sophomore seasons (he was a backup playing limited minutes in those years). As a rookie he averaged 2.9 ppg in 13.4 mpg, and as a sophomore he averaged 6.2 ppg in 21.9 mpg. That obviously brings down his career scoring averages.
As for considering a player's HOF-worthiness, you can't just look at his ppg and call it a day. You have to consider his accomplishments, his stats
in relation to his role, and his skill set/intangibles.
Primary Role: Playmaker/facilitator, defender
Accomplishments/Awards
- 3x NBA Champ
- 3x All Star
- 2x All-NBA
- 5x All-Defensive
- 2016-2017 DPOY
Stats
- Tied for #16 all-time in career regular season triple doubles (24)
- Tied for #4 all-time in career playoff triple doubles - behind only Magic, Lebron, and Kidd (10)
- #1 all-time in single season assists per game by a PF (also ranks #2, #5, and #6 on the same list)
- Led team in assists 5 out of 6 seasons as a starter
- Finished top 10 in NBA assists per game (all positions included) 3x in the last 6 seasons (ranked #7 overall twice and #9 overall once)
- Led the league in steals in 2016-17
- Regular season avg as a starter: 10.7 pts / 7.9 reb / 6.4 ast / 2.5 tov / 1.6 stl / 1.2 blk
- Postseason avg as a starter: 13.3 pts / 10.0 reb / 6.9 ast / 2.8 tov / 1.7 stl / 1.5 blk
Skill Set/Intangibles
- Elite court vision and decision making. Able to facilitate and quarterback a fast-paced moving offense at a high level while maintaining a good assist-to-turnover ratio
- Elite passer. Arguably the best passing PF of all-time and one of the best regardless of position
- Elite defender. One of the best defenders of all-time and can match up against all 5 positions on the court effectively
- Clutch. Being clutch isn't exclusive to making game-winning shots on offense. This includes making game-winning plays on the defensive side (as he's done numerous times throughout his career). Also despite being an average/below average 3pt shooter, he has the ability to step up and make crucial shots when needed. Not to mention that he elevates his game when it matters most (as shown by comparing his regular season stats to his playoff stats).
- Plays for wins, not stats. I recall a game where Draymond was 2 or 3 points away from recording a triple double with plenty of time still left in the game. Instead of chasing the triple double, he didn't even attempt another shot. Also, there's been many times he could've rebounded the ball but instead chose to box out and put his teammates in a better position to grab the board. If you watch Green's games consistently, you will notice that he passes up stat-accumulation in favor of making the right plays and getting teammates involved. He does a lot of things that don't appear on the stat-sheet.
Originally posted by TheGore49er:
Might as well put in AC Green because he was also the ultimate team player, defensive specialist, and won multiple titles.
Not even a close comparison. Draymond in 8 seasons has already accomplished way more than AC has done in 16 seasons. AC only matches the number of championships. Other than that he's not on any of the top all-time lists for any stat, never led the league in any category in a single season, and never made the all-star/all-nba teams more than once. If you're limiting Draymond's career to only a team-first role player who won multiple titles, you're ignoring his other accomplishments and overall impact on his team.
Originally posted by Garce:
The HOF is the Naismith Basketball HOF, not just the "NBA", it takes College and International Ball into account.
Good point Garce. As for college accomplishments, Draymond helped lead his team to 2 Final Four appearances and a Big Ten Tournament championship.
In addition to that:
- NABC National Player of the Year (2012)
- Consensus first-team All-American (2012)
- Big Ten Player of the Year (2012)
- First-team All-Big Ten (2012)
- 2× Third-team All-Big Ten (2010, 2011)
- Big Ten All-Defensive Team (2012)
- Big Ten Sixth Man of the Year (2010)
- Big Ten Tournament MVP (2012)
He's also the 3rd player in NCAA history with 2 triple doubles in the NCAA Tournament (along with Magic and Oscar Robertson).
Originally posted by Garce:
Green is a no doubt HOFer.
He's only 8 seasons into his NBA career and is still building his resume. It might be too early to call him a "no doubt HOFer" right now, especially since he doesn't put up flashy scoring and rebounding numbers that some people look for. However, I do agree with you Garce that Draymond is a HOF-caliber player and is trending in the right direction as a legit HOF candidate.
[ Edited by candlestick49er on Mar 11, 2020 at 6:14 PM ]
